Living on Fire with Shannon Watts

What if the key to moving from stuck to unstoppable isn’t finding your one big purpose but choosing to live with purpose, every day?

In this episode, we sit down with Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action and author of New York Bestseller Fired Up, to explore a practical framework for aligning what you value, what you're good at, and what truly matters to you. She calls it the fire formula, a tool for any stage of life, from early career to midlife reinvention.

We unpack three common myths that hold women back:

• That you need a single, all-consuming calling
• That happiness is the goal
• That constant busyness means you're succeeding

Shannon also shares her playbook for handling blowback when you start showing up differently, how to decide whose feedback matters, what to hold onto, and how to keep going when the discomfort sets in.

You’ll hear actionable strategies for building aligned community, sustaining momentum, and reclaiming your time and voice. We also get into:

• How to navigate professional risks and resistance
• How to build meaningful relationships in midlife
• How to push back against the systems and narratives shaping our democracy

This is a grounded, honest conversation about courage, clarity, and living on your own terms. If you’re ready to stop waiting for permission, this episode offers the tools and the push to start.

Click here for more Show Notes and Guest Bio. 

If you enjoy the episode share it with a friend, leave us a review and don't forget to hit the subscribe button.

If you are ready to take your career and business to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Learn more at www.VESTHer.co

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Stakes For Women
• 0:56 Shannon’s Book And Fire Metaphor
• 3:29 The Fire Formula: Values, Abilities, Desires
• 5:25 Purpose, Happiness, And Busyness Myths
• 8:33 Handling Blowback With Clarity
• 13:47 Friendship, Community, And Bonfires
• 18:52 Hope As Discipline And Democracy
• 26:39 Collective Care And Local Action
• 33:10 Raising Boys Amid Toxic Algorithms
• 39:20 Courage, Accountability, And Running For Office
• 53:08 Closing And Community Invitation

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome to the Vester Podcast, where we share honest conversations, actionable insights, and real stories to support not just your career growth, but also your life journey. I'm Erica Lucas, your host for today. Let's get started. At a time when the state of our democracy feels like its own support and the stakes for women's voices have never been higher. What does it really mean to live with purpose? And how can we find the courage to act on it? Today's guest, Shannon Watts, is no stranger to that question. As a founder of Moms Demand Action and one of Time's 100 most influential people, she spent over a decade proving what's possible when women get fired up and stay fired up, even when taken on one of the most powerful lobbying forces in America. In this episode, we talked to Shannon about her new book, Fired Up: How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at Any Age. And why women must stop waiting for permission to lead, to speak up, and to take action. Even when the blowback is real. Especially when the blowback is real. For our guestful bio and show notes, go to www.vesther.co forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career into the next level, join our community of women professionals eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vesther.co to learn more. This conversation was part of a more intimate coaching session with Vest members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. Yeah, the first question, I think a lot of us have read the book, but some of us haven't, and maybe some listeners that are tuning in haven't. So why don't you tell us what does it really mean to live on fire? You know, I stepped back from Momstream Action in 2023 and really wasn't sure what I was going to do. I think I thought, oh, I'm going to take a year-long break. And I ended up getting a call from Maria Shriver, who is a wonderful human, and she also has a book imprint. And she was a longtime supporter of Momstremain Action. And she told me that I should write a book for her imprint, kind of about what I had learned through my career and my activism, mostly about working with women. And I took a my some of my favorite self-help and business books to my friend Glenn and Doyle's house. And she looked at me and said, These are very boring. You are like more of a fiery personality. And that really is how the metaphor of fire began. And the thesis of my book is that, you know, men are taught to fulfill their desires and women are taught to fulfill their obligations. And how do we live a life in which we ask ourselves, what do I want? And look, I know the reason we don't ask ourselves that. It's not because we're weak, it's because we're wise, right? We know all of the obstacles that are in our way. And we know that if we woke up every day and asked ourselves, you know, what do I want? Institutions would crumble, governments would fall apart, family systems would fail, right? Like we know that that we are expected to fulfill all of these obligations and shoulds. And I really wanted to talk about how we can begin to change that dynamic. And if you think about the fire triangle that we learn about in middle school, that all of the elements that are required to start a fire, right? Your heat, your oxygen, your fuel, and then making that apply to us in real life. So the formula for living on fire is taking those three elements and replacing them with values, abilities, and desires. And I started Mom Stu Man Action in my 40s, and it was the first time that I really felt alive. It was the first time that I felt like I was touching the divine because my values, abilities, and desires were aligned. My values back in 2012, I had five little kids. You know, it was about protecting my family and my community. My abilities were my decades-long career in corporate communication. So I knew how to build a brand. I knew how to tell a story. And my desires were to stand shoulder to shoulder with a badass army of women. I mean, it's who I've seen get so much done in this country, starting with prohibition through civil rights and suffrage and all the way up to the water crisis in Flint, Michigan. And so that was really how I learned how to align those three things. And it resulted in something major happening in my life and in the world. And, you know, we have 11 million supporters now. So I held the hands of thousands and thousands of women and watched them do the same thing. And it doesn't have to be something huge like starting a new organization. It can be leaving a difficult relationship, having a difficult conversation, leaving your job, going back to school, asking for promotion. It can be something as simple, as significant as you want it to be, but it is should be also something that we do our entire lives, right? We should be constantly looking at what is limiting us and what is calling us. And so often women don't prioritize that and try to figure out what it is they want. I love that. And one of the things that I love about the book, too, is that right as you start with this, you also go into what um living on fire is not. And you encourage uh readers to push back against patriarchal expectations and societal norms. And I think that is so important because so often we attribute success to just a title or a position or a project, or you know, a lot of our best members are entrepreneurs and business owners, so to our business and the identity so attached to that. So can you expand on uh on that, please? Yeah, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and so so much of what we end up doing becomes commodified. I mean, self-care is a good example of that, right? If you only buy these things and you take this bubble bath, you will be okay. And yet, you know, we're we're living through a time in this country where the most marginalized among us, the most vulnerable, are being harmed. And a bubble bath is not going to help them. So, you know, when you think about like the things that are falsifiers in your life, and I name three of them and I go into depth, but purpose is one of them. We're told like you have this one reason to be alive. And if you figure out what that is, great. But if you don't, then you've sort of failed, right? Your life isn't what it could have been. And I mean, that's a huge amount of pressure to find this one purpose. And we invest a lot of money in figuring out who we are and what we're meant to be. And I talk about how we should be living on purpose instead of for a purpose. Really, I think what it boils down to is fulfillment. And that gets to this idea of happiness, which is the other falsifier. It's like this idea that if we're not constantly happy or seeking happiness, then we also have somehow failing in our lives. And that's just not the trajectory of life, right? It involves a lot of suffering and a lot of setbacks. And so if we can see those as just part of the process instead of an obstacle or a failure, um, I think that's a really important mindset. And then the final thing is busyness. And I'm very guilty of this myself. I spent, you know, several decades of my life feeling like if I wasn't busy at all times, then I wasn't providing value. And it's this idea of productivity, you know, talking about the commodification in capitalism. Like if I didn't have my calendar filled from the moment I woke up every day until I went to bed, um, then I was not living a good or purposeful life. And that isn't true, right? Life is full of also need to rest and need to think about where we're going. And um those shoulds that I talked about earlier, the obligations, we start to believe that those are our desires. That's what society wants us to believe. And if we can step back and say, okay, what do I really want as opposed to, am I doing things that other people have told me that I want? Love that. And and so you talk a lot about this, why we struggle to live on fire. But then you also go into why it's essential that we do it anyways. And what how have you coached, you know, women on doing things anyways, despite even our own self-limitations? Yeah, I will tell you the most frustrated I get is when I work with women who have these brilliant ideas or these undeniable desires. And they just find all these reasons for not moving forward. And again, it's not because they're weak, it's because they're wise. There's tons of obstacles, they know that it's difficult. Um, I have so many women who say to me, I wish I just had a manual for the blowback that I'm gonna receive when I kind of get in the arena. And, you know, living on fire, again, looking at what's limiting you and what's calling you, I mean, you're going to do things differently. You may want to do more, you may want to do less, but anytime you do things differently, there will be blowback. And it may not be, I tell the whole story in the book about how when I started Momstaman Action, I had all these threats of death and sexual violence to me and to my children. And it was really scary, right? I there were a lot of times when I had to decide, you know, was I going to double back or double down? And it was because of the support of so many women who helped me start Momstoman Action that I kept going. But I do think it's important to remember that, you know, it might be, you might not get threats of death and sexual violence, but you will have, you know, someone make a snarky comment in the pickup line at your kid's school, or your mother-in-law might have something to say. There will be people who don't agree with or appreciate how you are doing things differently. And I was really lucky to interview over 70 women from this book, women from all walks of life, including experts, um, psychologists, uh self-compassion experts, on and on. And when you I talk about this at length in the book, and there's lots of exercises and lots of prompts, but it really boils down to three things when handling blowback. The first is is this person worth listening to? You know, for me, gun extremists who probably are sitting in their mom's basement, like that was not important to me. They're their input and their their feedback. But you have to decide, you know, are you being triggered with the guilt and shame that we all sort of have inherently as women in society, right? Are you being triggered because this person's opinion is valuable or because we're just expected to be good, good girls, right? Um, that is how we're raised. And so the the three keys to blowback, in my experience, is number one, figuring out whether you value this person's input. The second is the ability to look at criticism and take what you want and leave behind what you don't. And that's really hard. Um, when I first started Mom Syman Action, I had so many people say to me, You're not the right person, this can never happen, it already exists, it'll never work. You know, so many different reasons why I shouldn't move forward. And I really had to be self-aware enough to know that some people had valuable feedback and some people didn't, some people had both. And what was I gonna take and what was I gonna leave behind? And then the third thing is just sitting with the feelings when you feel triggered by guilt or shame, or you're dealing with blowback, you're not really sure if you want to move forward. Like getting getting comfortable with being uncomfortable is a big part of this. And I talked to Kristen Neff, who's a self-compassion expert. And there's all these different ways when people have feedback to kind of sit in those emotions and not be reactive to it, because it's very easy to say, okay, this one person criticized me and therefore I cannot move forward. And I I think we I I know I'm guilty of this. We we do this a lot as women. Um, but those three things are really important to getting us through because you know, there's so much we have to get through to get through the other side of what we want, including like just enduring that sometimes these things take a long time. Oh, I love that. And one of the things you share even, you know, sometimes it's gonna be external forces, right, that are gonna give you the blowback. And sometimes it's gonna be really personal. Uh talk about the relationship with your dad. And, you know, I'm sure he did it out of being protective, right? He wanted to protect you, but he was like, Are you sure this is worth it? Um, and so I love that you brought that up because I think especially in this environment that we're living, you know, we have to deal with uh, you know, questioning. I know when I started speaking, I I feel like I've been involved in politics ever since I was able to vote in this country. Um, but I wasn't as public, right, with my social media until last year. Um and I I mean, I do get asked a lot, why do you still do it? Um, and and one of the things, Shannon, that I don't know if you've heard this from other women that I hear the most consistent is women who are afraid of losing their friendships over their politics. And so they rather not say anything because they don't want to make other people uncomfortable. Uh, but in my experience, I definitely have lost friendships. I don't know if they were really my friends, but I've lost some. But I've also made new ones that are more value-aligned. So, not sure if you kind of experienced you've talked about, you know, the need to build bonfires and with people that that that really align with their values. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I think there's two things there. So the first thing is that when we get triggered, and and guilt is, you know, I did a bad thing, shame is I am bad. And when we get triggered, we go into these different behaviors that I outline in the book. For some women, it's imposter syndrome, for some it's perfectionism, for some, it's disappearing. For me, it was martyrdom. I tell the story about how when I started Momstum in Action, like suddenly I was the tip of the spear on this issue that can be very polarizing. And because I was, you know, I'm pretty incendiary. And, you know, I was going up against these gun extremists and I had to take them on, right? And I would not back down. And I had sharp elbows and I knew that my personality had to be a leader who was not afraid. And I think in exchange for that, you know, I did not ever get paid in the 11 years that I did this work. I gave all of my speaking proceeds, all of my book proceeds that I wrote a book in 2019 to to the organization. And I look back and I realize I did not set a great example for other women, you know, who were also in the organization and were volunteering. And I think that's because I wanted to kind of keep this idea of I was good. And so all of us, I talk about all kinds of examples of women who go into these behaviors. And the reason it's important to know what behavior being triggered for guilt and shame will make go into it is because then you're self-aware. And when you're doing it, you can sort of correct that because it's so easy to go into that and then to decide not to move forward. Um, I interview a woman who, because of our interviews, she realized she had self-sabotaged herself every step of every career she's ever had when she started to succeed, right? And so there's just these patterns that we we need to be aware of. Um, and then the second thing you brought up was friendship. You know, a lot of it is about community. I don't think we can live on fire alone. I do think it requires the support of a community always. And, you know, mom's demand action, as I said, grew to have 11 million supporters. It is not hard to get volunteers to come into an organization. It is hard to get them to stay. It's why, for example, some of the largest nonprofits in this country do not have a grassroots network because you simply, this is very difficult to get people to stay. So we decided to interview, poll our volunteers, and ask them why they stay. And I think this information is applicable to life generally. They told us two things. One is they felt like they were winning. So what we were doing was a good use of their time. And that became so central to everything we did. We always positioned everything as losing forward. Maybe you lost a legislative battle, but you grew your chapter, you met more lawmakers, you learned something so that you would win the next time. When people feel like they're winning, they will give you additional time. They will keep showing up. And then the second thing is they felt like they found their people. This is such a secret to the success of momstream in action. When you share like, we talk about the values, abilities, and desires being the formula. When you find like-minded people who share your values, you don't want to let them down. You want to keep showing up, you want to know these people forever. And in the book, I start to refer to these as bonfires. You know, it's this idea of coming together and lifting one another up and helping people see, oh, what are my values, abilities, and desires, and then how do I pursue those? Um I think, you know, my story is kind of interesting because I spent, you know, I was 41 years old when I started Momstrom Man Action. I have five kids. I put so much of my life into my work and my family that I woke up in my 50s when I decided to leave Momsterman Action. And I was listening to a podcast one day. I was folding clothes, and the podcaster was like, if you don't have five people you can call in the middle of the night, you don't have enough close friends. And I thought, well, I have five kids, you know, that covers it. And he said, accept your family. I thought, well, what's the point of having five kids if I can't call them in the middle of the night? But okay. And I went on this journey to find friends. And I did what any type A woman does. I read all about it and I wrote down like how to find friends, and then I did it, right? I started figuring out how to invite people to coffee and how to be vulnerable and how to follow up and invite people to go on vacation. And now I be feel like I do have those five friends. But given that we're in a post-pandemic, post-polarization, post-social media world, and especially if you are midlife like me, you know, you you find yourself without your kids being the center of your world, and you're suddenly kind of figuring out what is the second half of my life? What is this next chapter? And I think it's really important that it involves friendships and community. Absolutely. And I want to talk about our the current state of our nation. But before we get to that, I want to read uh something from the book that I felt was one of my favorite parts of the book. And it says, I wasn't able to start mom's demand action because I'm extraordinary. I was able to start because I followed a specific formula. The women you see online or in person who are living the lives you aspire to live aren't unicorns either. They're not more talented or determined or passionate than you are. The only difference between you and them is that they figure out how to bring their desires, values, and abilities into alignment, which is your fire formula. Um, any woman can become a fire starter by following the formula and activating their fire triangle. Can you just quickly describe the three uh the three items that make up the formula? Yeah, you know, I when I meet people, so often they're like, oh, well, you must be a born leader, which makes me laugh because first of all, I have severe, untreated ADHD. Um I barely passed middle school, high school, and college. It wasn't really until I was in my 20s and 30s that I figured out how to navigate a system that was completely not made for me. Um I had no political knowledge. I did not know how the legislative system worked when I started Mom Student Action. I had never been an organizer. Um I'm a very shy introvert and an only child. And on top of that, I had a debilitating fear of public speaking. So not exactly someone people would look to and say, oh, that woman should take on the most powerful, wealthy, special interests that ever existed. And yet I was exactly the right person for the job, right? My ADHD enabled me to, from the moment I woke up till the moment I went to bed for 11 years, to hyperfocus on this issue that I was incredibly passionate about. I was able to overcome my fear of public speaking by just doing it over and over again. And I really do think this has been very helpful for my introversion because, you know, I'm someone who just sort of wants to stay inside and to get out and to be with other people has been very good for me. So I think sometimes we feel like, who am I? I don't have these qualities or these qualifications. And everyone, every single woman I've ever met with or talked with is a leader in their own capacity. And it does come back to this formula of values, abilities, and desires. You know, if you break it down, I just did an interview with or um an event with Brene Brown in Houston, who's sort of the North Star values research in this country. You know, there's hundreds, if not thousands, of them. And they change throughout our lives. I don't think we think enough about what our values are at any given moment. And that is really a way to guide what it is that you want to do next, whatever that might be, right? And I list a lot of the values in the book. People should look at them. And there are a lot of exercises to help you figure out, okay, right now in my life, what do I value and what does that mean for the direction, the trajectory of where I want to go? Um, the second is desires, right? When I started Melance Demand Action, you know, I grew up in Rochester, New York, where we were taught that the activists who passed through our town or who lived in our town were like superheroes, right? Everyone from Harriet Chubman to um Susan B. Anthony to Frederick Douglass, like all of those people we were taught were superheroes. And so I think when the mass shooting tragedy happened at Sandy Hope School, I thought someone has to step up, right? And and I didn't realize that was going to be me, but it was. And then I think the the the one of the really key pieces of this that we underplay so often as women is the abilities piece of the formula. Um I meet so many women who downplay their abilities. I was at an event the other night and we were talking about what women wanted. And this woman was like, I really want to pursue something in mental health. My family has struggled with mental health issues. I've taught people about mental health, but I just don't have the degree. You don't have the degree, but you have the passion, the values, abilities, desires. Like figure out maybe you're writing a Substack. Maybe you're pulling together a community group. There's so many ways to do things that don't require you to have, you know, a degree. So in the book, I ask women, list all of your desires. I don't, maybe that's like you had a kick-ass birthday party for your kids, right? Those that's executive functioning. What are all your abilities? What are things that you have done successfully? And then the key piece of this is then go ask people who love you what they see as your abilities because we don't see them ourselves because we downplay them. Having someone else, friends, family, tell us what they see as our abilities is very important. Then you have this whole robust list to remind you constantly of what you're good at. But it's also a list that reminds you what you might need to go get, right? A lot of value or a lot of abilities aren't intrinsic. They're not inherent, they are acquired. And so when you see your abilities and you say, okay, I am missing some of these things that will help me achieve what I want to achieve, then you can go pursue those. So I think that's why I spent so much time on the formula. And again, you're gonna practice, it's it's almost like a discipline or a practice. You're gonna have to try to bring these three things together over and over again. It might result in nothing, it might result in something very small, it might result in something very big. And it's just a practice that we should be continuing to do throughout our lives. 100%. And I agree with you. We don't make enough time to think about these, and and you make it. I can't recommend the book enough. I didn't know what it was, what to expect. I mean, I have, but it it really is a guide. I mean, every chapter has an action item, which I really appreciate, like an exercise for us to do, and like it also helps with accountability, right? Like you do it before you get into the next so definitely recommend it. Um, Shannon, we're living in health. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, you know, and and and I when I talk to VAS members or listeners or anybody uh, you know, in person online, uh, people are feeling scared, people are feeling discouraged, uh, people are feeling unsure on of what to do. What are you telling people that are coming to you for advice? First of all, I totally understand feeling hopeless and helpless. I completely get it. There are many times during the day when I feel like that too. But it was Mary Am Kabe, she's an activist who said hope is a discipline. Just as I think hopelessness and helplessness are a choice, so is hope. And so every morning you wake up and you decide which direction you're going to go in. Maybe many times through the day you make that decision. What I saw in gun safety activism was often that people who were cynical were making a choice to say, I know things are bad, but I'm not going to act. And I think that's very damaging in a democracy. I think, you know, it was Alice Walker who said, rent or uh activism is the rent I pay to live on the planet. No, I think we have to be thinking about democracy that way. And if you think about the suffragists, right, who were beaten, imprisoned, starved, they never saw the fruits of their labor. It took a hundred years for all women, not just white women, but all women to have the right to vote. And that is really what democracy is about. You're building the foundation so that when there is change, people can act. And that may not be, might not be you. You might not be around anymore to see that. It might be several generations later. But it's this idea of passing on the torch. And, you know, if you had told me, for example, when I started Mom's Demand Action that Virginia would eventually be a state that would pass over a dozen good gun laws, I would have said you were out of your mind. Even the senators in that state had A ratings from the NRA when I started Moms Demand Action, the Democratic senators, Mark Warner, Tib Cain. And it was so much work in a decade to get again, like uh 25% of all Democrats in Congress in 2012 had an A rating from NRA. Today none do, right? So to in Virginia to constantly show up the statehouse, to constantly show up where the senators were, to invest in elections, to get out the vote. Finally, it was really after the mass shooting in Virginia Beach when Republicans gaveled out after 90 seconds without doing anything, that the tide turned. And we were able in the next election cycle to flip all three chambers of the General Assembly and to pass over a dozen good gun laws, none of which were rolled back by the subsequent Republican governor. So we'd spent a decade building the foundation so that we could take action when there was change. And I think that's how we have to think about our activism. I understand the fear. I know, I knew Melissa Hortman, the state rep who was murdered in Minnesota. But I also know that all those threats of death and sexual violence I got, they were intended to silence me. They were intended to scare me. And that's what's happening right now in this country. They want to silence and scare us so that we don't act. And that should outrage us, especially those of us with privilege. I also think, you know, let's say your kid is sick and it's 2 a.m. and you're exhausted, they've been throwing up all night. You don't look at them and say, you know what? I have an early meeting, I have to go to bed, but I'll check back in with you at 8 a.m. and see how you're feeling. Right? We would never do that. We hold that kid's hand until they're better. And I think democracy is the same way. Like we have to hold democracy's hand until it's better. Wow. I love that. Um you said something about um activism, and and I love that quote. Uh and recently I was having a conversation with someone, and they said, you know, well, we just need to come up with a new word because activism and activist, it, you know, scares people. This is a group of professional women, uh, you know, uh, we're in the finance sector, we're in corporate America, we're in philanthropy across the board. But it saddened me, to be honest. It was like, what what about the word activism makes you think that it's a dirty word? Like, you know, it just, I don't know. Uh have you ever heard that from people? Like, um, and what do you what do you think it's associated with? Is it associated with uh societal expectations? Is it demon professional? What do you think about that statement? I mean, I I write about this in the book. I I felt that way up to the St. Uk school shooting. You know, I was a corporate executive, I'm mommy five, I'm living in a suburban area of Indiana. And I thought, you know, I have to get activated. And then I thought about the word activist. And I think what it reminded Me of is like people who chain themselves to offense or something, you know, like this incredibly radical behavior. And it's not, right? It's just you are a keeper of the democratic flame. You're you're someone who supports democracy, who's exercising the rights that you're supposed to allegedly have through the constitution. Um, and and you know, I think with so many words, we often want to like rename them so they're more palatable people to people. But what we really should be doing is sort of embracing them and making them represent what it is that we mean or what we want. Um, I very proudly consider myself an activist. And maybe if more of us did, you know, we would be using our votes and our voices to make change. Absolutely. I also want to acknowledge the fear that a lot of uh professional women are are feeling, especially with all the five. I mean, unfortunately, you know, we have corporate America. Um, don't know if you guys watch Kamala's interview with Kara um on the pivot, I think it was the pivot uh podcast. Yeah. She said, you know, with all these CEOs being so transactional, and how she was surprised, she wasn't surprised that they came, but she was surprised of how fast it happened and how transactional it was, right? And uh, because they they're smart people, they know what's happening. And now we are seeing the firing, a lot of black women are uh being fired and let go and not able to secure jobs. Um, we're also seeing a lot of uh people get fired over their social posts. So, how would you coach women who want to do something um but are also afraid of potential backlash uh with their employer or business? One thing I would say is I just did an interview with Professor Anna Gepte. Um she wrote a book called The Double Tax, which is really interesting. It's it's really focused on black women and how they're suffering in this economy. But if she says black women are just the canary in the coal mine because what comes next happens to all of us, right? And so we should all be smart and we should all know that. So I highly recommend the book, The Double Tax, or check out our interview. Um it's on book substack, and we posted a clip on Instagram, but she's amazing and she's actually on book tour right now. Um but I don't want to downplay that fear at all. And I do think that's why people who have privilege and who aren't in the vulnerable place, the onus is on us so much to step up. You know, that's how I felt about gun violence prevention too. Um, you know, I had someone make a suggestion. I I think women are just like invincible and amazing, especially when they come together in community. And I was on book tour, you know, a few months ago, and I someone, a woman had this idea and she said, I'm a lawyer. What if I got together with other lawyers in my community and we found out which women were vulnerable because, you know, maybe they had been admonished or even fired from their jobs for exercising their rights in a democracy? And what if what if we could support them? Because so many of these people, for example, who were fired or penalized after the Charlie Kirk shooting tragedy unjustly have been reinstated because of the work of lawyers. And so I think it's on us as communities to come together and say, okay, who are the women in our community who are vulnerable or suffering and how do we protect them? And have sort of these innovative ways of doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 33:19

I have a question. Hi, I'm Vanessa Morrison and uh Shannon really enjoyed your talk. And thank you so much for just the inspiration and the insights and perspectives. And I get really energized by these conversations and the thought of having this collectivism and coming together as women, and our power is so much more, it's stronger together. But it just seems like sometimes in the daily practice of trying to do that, it can be difficult. And luckily, the Vest platform creates a platform for us to be able to come together and share this power and be in community and share resources. But I'm just curious, from your perspective, like from a daily practice point of view, how can we really hold ourselves accountable to doing this collective work even outside of forums like this?

SPEAKER_01: 34:10

Oh, I love this question. And the part of the reason I love it is because I have been shocked that women have taken my book and now they are meeting in person where they live. So in over 25 states now, there are bonfires where these women are just coming together and they are meeting about personal, political, and professional empowerment. You know, if you ask me, do I know who my neighbors are, the answer is no, probably in the last few states I've lived in. And what I have seen is the power of community, particularly when, let's be honest, there's not going to be a lot that we can do at a federal level. There's so much that we can do when we know our neighbors, when we can know who's suffering, or we know what's on the agenda at our city council, or we know what our school board is talking about, um, or we know women who've been laid off, et cetera, right? And that all happens locally and in community. And I can remember after the election loss, so many people were talking about community. And I was kind of like, is that just something we're saying, or is that real? And I really do think it's real because if we have joy, if we have connection, if we have value where we live, then we have a lot. And that can get us through and it can help us create that foundation that I was talking about. So that is a long way of saying find the community where you live. Maybe you want to join if anybody wants to join or lead a bonfire, let me know. Uh my email is just ShannonR Watts at gmail. So I'm happy to connect you to a bonfire that might already exist where you are. If you want to start one, let me know. But there are also lots of community groups, you know, where you live. I can remember during the pandemic, you know, when I was going through that whole thing of trying to find friends, I found a hiking group where I lived at the time in the East Bay. So I, you know, I think Vanessa, like so many things, it's carving out time, which brings me to another part of the book. I talk about something called a controlled burn. You know, when you hear about a prescribed burn in real life, it's something that's been practiced for eons, this idea of how do we protect the, how do we protect nature from wildfires? And so we do a prescribed burn where we burn some things. And if you apply that to your own life, you do an audit of the things that you no longer need or the things that are maybe usurping so much of your valuable time. Part of my interviews with women for the book, you know, we talked about a controlled burn that they had done in their own lives. One woman looked at the amount that she was drinking during the pandemic and decided that that was taking too much of her capacity, right? Um, there are a lot of people who talk about doom scrolling or watching Instagram reels, which I am very guilty of, or, you know, being on TikTok, social media can often be a big drain on her time. But maybe there are also roles that you've taken on that that you don't necessarily have to do. Uh, another woman talked about how she has an eating disorder. Part of her prescribed burn was getting rid of all the clothes in her closet that were holding her to this very small standard that she could never meet. And it was taking up so much of her bandwidth in her brain. So if you if you read through the book, there are exercises of ways you can audit the things in your life that might be taking up time that you could spend on finding your community or staying in your community and tapping into community. I totally agree with you that it is hard, but I do think it's such an important piece of staying well right now.

SPEAKER_00: 37:38

Yeah, for sure. I appreciate those tangible takeaways and strategies. And it does feel like a lot of times when I am in these spaces, it's very professional production, you know, production. Right. Like we're producing, we're creating, we're working. And it would be nice to have more of like just, hey, let's just like socialize, let's just be in so much of that, and I'm so grateful for it. But yeah, it feels nice not to just always be in work production mode, but just be in community, get to know your neighbors, and just hold space for one another. So thank you for that. Those useful takeaways. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: 38:18

Uh Shannon, I want to ask you something that I think um a lot of uh moms, uh particularly boy moms, are struggling with right now. Yeah, the radicalization that has taken place um on social media with some of these male influencers. But now, as we I'm sure you've all seen the political article that came out yesterday, and it's even with social clubs that are supposed to be, you know, social clubs um for um young adults. Um and I'm don't want to assume, but maybe the team can put the political um article on the chat. But basically, young Republican claw leaders were texting um anti-um anti-Semitic, uh, racist, and misogynistic uh text messages to dangerous and and extremely concerning. And and my and and what I think it's sad is that we've normalized so much of this, right? Like so many people is like, oh, but that's just poly. Oh, well, they're just boys. Are you hearing this from other moms? And again, how do we how do we support them? I have referrals, I still worry. You know, I I actually texted the article to my daughter who's in college, and she was like, Oh, yeah, mom, that's how they talk. And I was just like, What? Uh, even in college at clubs, right? In groups and fraternities. Um yeah. So um I'm gonna make another book recommendation. There's a book called Boy Mom by Ruth Whitman, and it's all about in just what's happening right now with young men in this country, but also in particular, what's happening with white young men in this country. Um, I'm the mom of a white 25-year-old son. And, you know, this is something that I have been worried about for a very long time. He was born in 2000, so he sort of came of age in the social media environment. And, you know, I do think it's parents' role to monitor what their children are seeing online. There's all these studies. A study came out last week from Common Sense Media. You know, boys are so exposed to porn and pressure to be masculine and what that means in terms of how they look and how they act. Um, it's so toxic and so dangerous, particularly in a nation with 400 million guns in circulation, right? It's like the perfect storm for creating incels and people who are dangerous. I'll just be honest, there's a part of me that gets so angry about this idea that we have to spend so much time caring about young, privileged men and their loneliness. Like I resent it. But on the other hand, I've seen what happens when you ignore it. And so, like, there's this sort of catch-22 of, you know, women don't own this. Women have their own problems. And we've been a, you know, we hold 25% of the 500,000 elected positions in this country. We're less than 5% of fortune, 1,000 CEOs. Like we we don't have power and we aren't killing people. And yet, like that, this is what happens to our families if we don't pay attention to it. So I I do think this is a crisis. Um, and let's just be honest. I mean, it's how it's in many ways how Donald Trump and has won the election, has stayed in power, will continue, you know, that that party will continue to stay in power. If it, I mean, I don't know how many of you saw that basically the vice president came out and condoned what these young Republicans said and or excused it. And that is terrifying to me, you know, that that all of these racist, bigoted, misogynist remarks, supporting everything from rape to to murder, you know, I I it should terrify all of us. You know, empathy has started to be seen now as a toxic trait in our society, and that's exactly what we need. So I guess what I'm saying is this is not our fault. And yet I do think that that we need to be aware of it, especially if we have sons and both parents have a role in the to play in making sure they know what their boys are doing and what they're thinking and how they're behaving. But also, I think this is such an important time for women to figure out, you know, what our values, abilities, and desires, and how can we bring those to bear? Because what men need are more role models of women who are empathetic and who are not gonna be silent. And this is a little bit of a tangent, but you know, I the the the most common deathbed regret in the world is that you didn't live a life that's true to you. And so when I interviewed all these women for this book, I thought, I'm gonna ask them this question, they're all gonna say the same thing. They all said the same thing, but that wasn't their deathbed regret. They were worried that their deathbed regret would be that they spent so much time focused on what they wanted that they sacrificed their children. Which is so interesting because a man would never say that, right? And I think a lot of us are so tied up in raising our children that we forget to go after what we want or we feel that we don't deserve it or we just don't do it. And I interview experts who say, you know, your children, and this includes your sons, they actually want you to have other things that you're focused on in your life because it's a lot of pressure on them to be everything, but also you're setting an example for them. And so that's what I think is so important about what we do is that we're setting an example for young men. Absolutely. Um, and I love something that I think it's so true. You mentioned it earlier about, you know, when people ask, who are the five people that you call and you said your kids? I don't know if you went through it. But as my girls grew older and, you know, moved to college and so on. I I always tell women, don't attach your identity to your business, to your project, to your title. But I had attached my identity to being a mom. And when they left me and wanted nothing to do with me, I had an identity crisis. I was like, wait a minute, I'm lonely. I don't have any friends, you know, and um, so, anyways, I just um I think you're right. I think we need to prioritize ourselves and not, I mean, the identity of a mom is also attachment, right? Yeah, I mean, we we are the wealthiest, healthiest generation Gen Xers that's ever existed in history. And unlike, you know, my mom, who was born in 1949, you know, she was, after I left for school, sort of expected to take up a hobby and disappear, fade into the background. I think it's JD Vance who also said that menopausal women, the whole role is to, I guess, babysit grandkids. That's just not the case anymore. You know, our we have more wisdom and in many cases more energy left in our second half. And we should be thinking about what do we want to do until the very end. And that's why I interview women in their 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond for my book, because the the most vibrant volunteers for Mom Student Action were women who are retired. You know, those were the ones who just got shit done. So I really do think that we should be thinking about a post-emptiness world and what it is that we want to do, because in many ways we're just getting started. 100%. And since we're talking about labels and, you know, identities and stuff like that, um, at VAS, we actually, this was pre-election. I can't remember when we had it, but we actually had a conversation about the psychology around putting labels to young women. And we were discussing the trad wives and the cat ladies, you know, after JD Vance um uh said that, you know, women who don't have children are just sad cat ladies or whatever. Um, we actually had a conversation about that and and the psychology and and what that does to young women did not correlate it, not as much to what is happening now, and you know, how we've talked about social media and how the social media influencers are using culture and some of these labels to also lure voters or or the people that follow them into a certain voting pattern, right? So just curious to know if you've had these type of conversations with uh with women and volunteers about this Tradwife movement and um and what your advice is for us. I mean, I think it comes down to the algorithm. You know, the algorithm is arming all of us and it's encouraging us to hate one another. I mean, we can't even have like a Taylor Swift album without it turning into this very incredibly divisive thing. And that's because we're being served all this stuff online. Um, it's a struggle for me. You know, I'm wrestling with like what do I do with social media? It's on one hand an important community. On the other hand, like, am I being harmed or am I harming others? And I think it's something that it's a reckoning that we all have to figure out in the absence of governmental action. I mean, a long time ago, presidents on both sides should have regulated social media so that we're not being exposed to this. But yes, I mean, I think the whole reason the Trump administration has been so successful is because they understand how to tap into those incendiary cultural points that make us all take positions. And this is an intention economy. So if you're getting attention, then you're winning. And all of those things, this idea of, you know, we're all gonna go back to church and women are going to stay in the home and men are going to have the power. I mean, this is not what the general population wants, and yet we're being told it is. And when you're living online, that's what you see. So, you know, I think that that we keep coming back to this idea of community, but Twitter is not real life. That is not how people talk to one another. It's not the opinions people hold. Real life is much different. And if we aren't plugged into people where we live and we aren't having conversations that change hearts and minds, and we aren't hearing people's feedback and opinions and without that sort of algorithmic um silo, then it's it's really becomes very dangerous. And you know, this this is all intertwined. I mean, we this goes back to young men too, who are living in the algorithm. For sure. Um, yeah, and then there's a whole other conversation, right? When we talk about who's designing the algorithms and the AI now with Sora and Men, all men. Yes, yes, and and and also regulating bodies, right? When we look at who actually regulating AI, there's very few women, if at all. Um, so yeah. Um, any more questions from uh VAS members? Uh during this part of our coaching session, a VAS member shares she was navigating an incredibly difficult situation involving alleged sexual abuse and misconduct. She asked for guidance on how to find the courage to speak up and protect others. To respect her privacy, we edited that portion out. But we did want to share Shannon's powerful reflection on what it takes to act with courage in moments that truly demand it. First of all, thank you for what you're doing and thank you for being brave. And I can remember after the election, I did a substantial guide with Jessica Yellen. I don't know if you know her she is, she runs News Not Noise on Instagram. And she said in the next four years, everyone is going to have their own Ann Frank moment where they have to decide how they are going to be brave and help other people at the risk to themselves. So whether it's, you know, what you're doing, or whether it's people going to the No Kings rally this weekend, or, you know, it just can look so many different ways for so many different people. And that is the work in this moment for sure. Part of our members' question also included the need to talk about holding our the leaders in our own communities accountable. So here's a continuation of that. I think it's relevant because a lot of people often tell me, oh, that's great. We just need more women in power. Or we just need more Latinos in power. But representation, as proven, it's not always, you know, like we also need to do a lot of work internally ourselves as Latinos. I tell people all the time, like, um we need to do the work and deconstruct a lot of things that we've been thought uh or that we think are right before we serve, right? Because otherwise we're just creating more problems and we're being more extractive than we are contributing to our community and to the well-being of our community. So just curious to know if you've with women, you know, working with women, um we're obviously seeing a lot of women that are not necessarily fighting for women's rights that are in office. They're not necessarily fighting for other women who need access to healthcare with the ACA, and they know that their state is going to be affected, but they, I guess, are not willing to compromise or even talk about it. Um, so one is one you to close us out with any action items that you have for us, specifically if you want, if you have one for how do we deal with how do we keep women accountable and people in leadership in our communities, whether it's the Latino community, the black community, whatever, accountable when they are in positions of leadership. Well, I mean, I think thanking and shaming people, you know, it's it's as as old as activism and it is, it works. I mean, for those who still have some shame, and it's how Moms Demand Action was able to stop the NRA's agenda 90% of the time for over a decade, right? And pass over 500 gun laws. Thanking and shaming people typically works. I also do think there's a moral imperative for women to run for office in this country. As I said, we only hold about 25% of the 500,000 elected positions. And I promise you, the 85%, you know, men who are in office are not super healthy and uh smart. So, like, you know, I've been in, I've sat in a lot of state houses, and these are a lot of them are not rocket scientists. So I do think that there's an onus on us. And I don't care if that's like county coroner or city sheriff or whatever. It doesn't have to be Congress or president. Think about an office you can serve in and either run yourself or encourage other women to run. Emerge America is a great organization for that. I'm on the board. Um, and then I would just say, you know, next best step. I I would love for you all to figure out your own fire formula. What are your values, abilities, and desires, and how can that lead you in the next direction? And you can, I'm I'm at most social media at Shannon R. Watts. I read all my DMs on Instagram. If you enjoyed the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of women professionals, eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.besther.co to learn more.