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VEST Her Podcast
A podcast exploring the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and sharing stories of women navigating careers and building power collectively.
VEST Her Podcast
Leading with Empathy in a Polycrisis World
In this episode, we sit down with Niren Chaudhary, former Chairman and CEO of Panera Bread, and VEST Member Beverly Carmichael, a seasoned corporate board director for several iconic brands. Together, we explore the rising demand for empathetic leadership in today’s volatile and unpredictable world.
“Leaders have to be peddlers of hope,” Niren Chaudhary.
For our guests full bio and show notes click here.
Drawing on the moving story of his late daughter Aisha—who accomplished extraordinary things in her 18 years despite a terminal illness—Chaudhary shares how profound personal loss reshaped his perspective on life, leadership, and legacy.
From this experience emerged a leadership philosophy anchored in three core values:
- Courage: Focus on what you can control.
- Gratitude: Celebrate life’s gifts, even in hardship.
- Generosity: Lead by serving others.
He introduces a four-step framework for processing loss and leading with resilience:
- Acceptance
- Self-forgiveness
- Self-love
- Renewed hope through purpose
These principles are not only healing—they’re actionable strategies for leaders navigating uncertainty and change.
Chaudhary also reflects on the challenges of leading multigenerational teams, and building cultures that thrive, by providing:
- Clarity of mission
- Opportunities for personal mastery
- Shared purpose as a multiplier for good
and challenges the false divide between purpose and profit. He shares how leaders can foster a virtuous cycle where values-driven decisions enhance both customer and employee experiences—not through isolated acts of charity, but through integrated, sustainable impact.
Tune in to discover how courage, gratitude, and generosity can transform your leadership—and your organization. Be sure to share this episode with a friend and don’t forget to leave us a review.
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
You know, I believe that we're living in a very dynamic world. It's volatile, it's unpredictable and it's a world of poly-crisis, if you think about it. And this is one of those elements. But if you think about it, step back and say well, you know, there's an unprecedented level of challenges, whether it is about diversity, equity, inclusion, climate technology, you know, risks of technology, all of them. There's significant sort of challenges that we in fact, there's some sort of a trust deficit in the world around.
Speaker 1:So there are many challenges, but I passionately believe that when the world around us or situations seem overwhelming, when the world around us or situations seem overwhelming, if we all go, the solution, I believe, doesn't lie outside of us. It lies actually within us. And if we go back to our own core values, with compassion, to address lack of understanding, with curiosity, to address climate change, with a sense of responsibility, to address the risks of technology, with a greater sense of morality and what's right and what's wrong, I believe these challenges can become unique opportunities. It is our job as leaders to always be optimistic. Leaders have to be peddlers of hope. We have to be optimistic, you know, and optimism is an infinitely better universe to live in.
Speaker 2:In this episode we sit down with Niren Chaudhary, chairman and CEO of Panera Bread, and best member Beverly Carmichael, a seasoned corporate board director for several iconic brands. Together, we explore the growing demand for empathetic leadership, especially in today's volatile and uncertain landscape. From navigating multi-generational workspaces to staying grounded in values like compassion, equity and responsibility, we share insights as to how leaders and board members can remain principled even as these values are increasingly politicized and challenged. For our guest's full bio and show notes, go to wwwvestherco forward slash podcast. This conversation was part of a more intimate coaching session with best members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. If you enjoy the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review.
Speaker 3:If I could, I'd like to start with something that I guess is, uh, it is personal to you, and that is your daughter Aisha's story. Her story has really touched so many lives, has even been the basis of a Bollywood film, the Sky is Pink. Many people probably have seen it or heard of it, but for those who aren't familiar, just tell us about Aisha, her journey, her story and how she has inspired you in your leadership and in your life.
Speaker 1:Thank you for asking that question, so I think for everybody else. Aisha, my daughter, was 18 years old when she passed away a few years back of a fibrotic lung, which is essentially a hardening of the lung, and she was 13 when she received the diagnosis that she had only five years to live. But what is amazing is that her response and attitude was well, at least I have five years to live. And she lived at such intensity that she had gratitude for what she had and not despair for what she was losing, and made the best of the gifts that were there available to her and made every single day count, in every moment magical. She continues to inspire me and I love talking about her any opportunity and she achieved so much despite how little she had, and she certainly achieved infinitely more than many of us would achieve in a lifetime. Let me share some of. Let me brag a little bit about my daughter.
Speaker 1:You know she was a TED Talk speaker. She's got two talks on YouTube, over a million hits each. A motivational speaker, she's the author of a best-selling book called my Little Epiphanies. It's on Amazon. There's a movie, as Beverly mentioned, inspired by her life and her incredible spirit, called the Sky is Pink on Netflix, and there is also a documentary that we released to honor her, called Black Sunshine Baby, on Netflix. All of this in the span of less than 18 years is absolutely astounding that she achieved so much despite how little she had, and I think the reason why she was able to achieve so much was because of the innate wisdom that she got. When many of us do, when we are confronting death, when we're confronting the end, I think we suddenly have an epiphany about what's truly important, and as did my daughter, and she sort of really had clarity around what was truly important to her in that moment, when she knew that she had only five years to live.
Speaker 1:And her story is about those three values that I have since then embraced, and I hope, if these resonate with you, you will too. The first value is about courage, which is let's focus on what we can control and not what's happening to us, and she lived her life on that basis. I'm going to just celebrate what I have and do with what I have, instead of despairing for what I have lost. The second is gratitude that there is always something in life to be grateful for, and let's remember to just honor the many gifts that we have in this precious short tenure of life that has been given to us and live a life celebrating all the many gifts and not despairing for the losses that we may have suffered.
Speaker 1:Gratitude and finally, she lived a life basis the value of generosity, that true happiness lies in helping and giving to other people, and I think we all relate to that as human beings. You know, when we are in service of other people is truly when we feel most fulfilled. So I have, since her passing, embraced these values and it has truly shaped who I am as I move forward in life. Yeah, that's very profound, and just the thought that all of that happened who I am as I move forward in life.
Speaker 3:That's very profound and just the thought that all of that happened, she was able to accomplish all of that in 18 years, do you? As I think about it? I think we all have some sort of loss in our lives. How do we? I mean, yours is very profound and you really embrace that. But how do we think about when we have loss? How do we keep from letting it get us down and keeping us down, particularly as we try to be leaders in our organizations, as we try to be good mothers, aunts, you know, good family members? How do we keep loss from getting us down and keeping us down?
Speaker 1:Such an important question and I think my loss has been pretty extreme, like you said. You know, but there is nobody on this call who has not lost something or someone. I can confidently say that Each one of us, who nobody on this call who has not lost something or someone, I can confidently say that Each one of us who's on this call has experienced loss of some kind, Something or someone. Everybody. That's kind of a, you know like an integral part of being human is to lose, and it's part of our human experience and our human journey, no matter who we are, and that inner set is a common denominator for all of us. What I have realized is that in those most hurtful and vulnerable moments of loss is when we can actually learn and grow the most. And if we reframe our losses and an opportunity to become stronger and better, then it is has its own use in the way that it ends up shaping who we are. So let me just explain. I really believe that if we, rather than shutting out and blocking our losses and pain, if we open ourselves and embrace the hurt and allow it to shape who we are, I believe that we can walk taller and walk further after every time that we fall down. And what I discovered was it's not easy, of course, and it takes time, and it takes different amounts of time depending on what you're dealing with, but I found that there are four different things that one can do to actually allow us to have our losses shape who we are. So the four things I want to share with everybody on the call First is acceptance, and we all know the serenity prayer, right, let me accept and let me have the strength to accept that that I cannot change, but I have found that that is never enough, and I'm sure many of us have done that and we ask for acceptance, but you know what? Where do we go from there? The second step, of course, is extremely important, which is around self forgiveness. That acceptance is not enough. Whenever there is a loss of some kind, we tend to always hold ourselves accountable. Hold ourselves accountable and we have guilt, and therefore letting go of that guilt is so important. Therefore, forgiving yourself.
Speaker 1:I had to learn to forgive myself for having failed the two daughters that I lost. I felt that I had failed as a father and that what that self-forgiveness means is and even though that thought was irrational what that self-forgiveness means is you keep telling yourself you did the best that you could, I forgive you. You did the best that you could, I forgive you. And after a while you start believing it. You know, initially, of course you reject it. So acceptance, then forgiveness. But even that forgiveness is not enough.
Speaker 1:I have learned that you need to then learn to love yourself again, because you can't give to others what you don't have and you're hurting and you're bruised and you're angry and you're unhappy. And you have to learn to actually say, okay, I love you. And I have to learn to love myself again to be able to love somebody else. And to me there's a very simple way of expressing self-love. You know, all of us have a one day I will list, which is a mini bucket list One day I will take that holiday. One day I'll fall in love. One day I will learn that language. One day I will learn a musical instrument. One day I will do this and I will do that. And my expression of self-love is do it now, prioritize it and make time for yourself. You want to have that holiday that you've always wanted. Do it now, don't wait. You know you want to learn that instrument. Do it now. I want to learn that language. Do it now.
Speaker 1:So when I lost Aisha, you'll find this funny, but number one on my list was to go to Harvard. What a strange thing to dream about, but I went there. The second thing on my bucket list was to release my music. I'm a musician and I hired a music studio. I hired some musicians, played some music and I released the songs on Spotify. Nobody listens to it, except for my wife, but you know they're out there. So acceptance, forgiveness, self love and then, finally, even that is not enough, because, as human beings, we need hope. We need hope to get up and to walk again. We need a purpose, a mission. You know meaning for our lives and I think that's so important and that has to. So my sort of mission and meaning is to help unlock human potential, and I wake up every day, every morning, committed to make that a reality. So I think, in summary, I would say loss is an incredible opportunity for us to become stronger, to walk taller, to walk further, if you can remember these four things of acceptance, forgiveness, self-love and hope.
Speaker 3:Wow, you know, if we finished our session right, then I would feel like this was a huge success. Those are things that I will, and I know we all will, carry forward. I had never thought about them like that. But let's change subjects a bit. I'd like to talk a little bit about just the workforce in general, but first maybe starting with those who are just entering the workforce. This is an interesting time to just to be entering the workforce. But if you were entering the workforce today, what advice would you give yourself and what advice would you give our members who are just starting their career?
Speaker 1:So I think a couple of things. I think first, I would say maybe three things. One is that to really take a moment and realize how leadership is a privilege. You know, it is indeed a privilege, and all of us are leaders. We are leaders either at home, in our personal lives, with our friends, in our communities or in the business world, and indeed it is a privilege because it gives us the unique opportunity to be a force multiplier for good, because it gives us the unique opportunity to be a force multiplier for good, which means that, if we want, we can impact people, community, planet and enterprise. So it's a privilege and therefore it's something that is very precious, that one must actually prepare for and do extremely well with. So I would say that's the first thing, that listen, this is a very noble cause of leadership is indeed a privilege. The second thing is, I think it's almost like the way in which you can prepare for the world that is unfolding around us, which is, you know, so dynamic and so chaotic and so volatile right now.
Speaker 1:There are two master habits that I want to share with everybody, just like going to the gym if you practice these every day, you will be a successful leader who can fulfill this act of, and this calling for of being a privilege. The first one is curiosity of learning, and learning is a muscle, by the way, and if you therefore a simple way to do it is every day, if you try and learn something that you find interesting but extremely difficult. It could be AI, it could be technology, it could be music production, it could be songwriting, it could be learning a new language, anything that you find difficult, but you've thought about doing it every day and just going through the cycle of discipline, of learning, I think, is such an important trait for the future. So I would say curiosity building, curiosity, muscle. And the third thing that I wanted to share is resilience muscle, just like going to the gym.
Speaker 1:Resilience, tenacity, perseverance is another muscle, and a simple way to do it is that whenever you think something is important and you don't feel like doing it, do it. So, whether it is about eating healthy and you're reaching out for that cookie, don't, or it is that you've committed to yourself that I'm gonna go out and run every day for at least half an hour and it's raining outside and it's cold and there's a great Netflix show, and that a thousand and one reasons why you shouldn't be doing it. Do it right, get your headphones out, put your raincoat on and go out, and those little victories of having the mental discipline and strength to do what you think is important and to persevere is again a habit. So I would say those three things. It's a privilege. And then exercise your curiosity, exercise resilience.
Speaker 3:Let me dig in a little bit more on maybe a more practical aspect of just the workforce. So most of us are working in organizations where there are multiple generations. In many organizations there's five. I've actually worked in one or two where there were five generations and if you think about that, I mean that spans a lot. With those multiple generations there are differences, maybe in perspective, on a number of things things like the meaning of work, things like what role does work serve in your life, things about flexibility, things about what is leadership really, what is it really? All of those things differences. If we're working in organizations where there are those multiple generations, what advice would you have to sort of bridge those things for the betterment of the organization?
Speaker 1:This is such a good question and I hadn't quite realized it in the way in which you framed it, which is so true, and as you were saying it, I was saying OK, so who are these generations? So you have the boomers, and the boomers come in with, of course, experience. Then you have the Gen X. They come with sort of practical advice and experiences. When you have the millennials, they come with a desire for purpose. And then you have the Gen Zs. They're coming with all the bold questions. So they're all sort of you know, coming with what's important to them.
Speaker 1:I think a great metaphor is think of a rock band. So think this is a rock band happening and each person has their own place, like one's a drummer, one's a bassist and a guitarist, one's a singer. Each one has their individual strengths and you have to somehow, as a leader, you're the conductor and you have to make sure that the music that they produce, it resonates with the world and not a few people. But that I mean that it shouldn't be acid rock, like acid rock only appeals to a few, but it should be like the Beatles. You know that everybody loves and that kind of cuts across everyone. So the question is how do you really do that? You know, how do you make music with people who are individuals and you basically drive individual excellence or individual desire for fulfillment and collective excellence. You know they're individually great as musicians but they want to be collectively. They had to be much, much bigger. And I think the so it's no longer sort of one size fits all, you know, like one way of doing it, kind of one size fits one type of mindset. And I was thinking so what does that mean practically? How do you really make sure that the music is like the Beatles and not acid rock?
Speaker 1:And I think there are three things I want to offer that the way the song is written, for it to be a global hit. First, I think there should be clarity about the mission, like why are all of us here together? What are we trying to do? The second is an opportunity for personal mastery. If I become part of this band, can I keep improving and be fulfilled as a human, as an individual? Do I have chances and opportunities to train and become better? So mastery. And the third is collectively, could we become multipliers for good? Could we collectively serve people, community, planet, make more money, enterprise shareholders make, serve all our shareholders and make them happy. So I think, if the song sheet has mission and it has mastery and it has multiplier, I think you have a great chance to make that music almost iconic, you know. So that's what comes to my mind, and therefore a leader's job is to create an environment where he has those three things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love your music metaphors and you mentioned it a bit, but I happen to know that you are a musician, you're a singer, you're a musician and all that it sounds like music has informed your career in some way. Tell us a little bit more about that, if it has.
Speaker 1:You know music. So I've been playing for about 35 years and it's quite funny how it first started. I met my wife when she was 14 years old I was 16 in school. I saw her and the minute I saw her I fell in love. And she did not. And I told her. I said you're going to marry me? She said you're mad, I will never marry you.
Speaker 1:And then I had to sort of learn the guitar to try and impress her, which didn't work, by the way, but I ended up learning the guitar. And so it started with just my desire to sort of land the woman that I love, and then I became just so committed and devoted to music because I think to me again, it's like a metaphor of life. It's about, you know, like it's the individual discipline to keep sort of going deep within you to discover new levels of excellence and then to produce something that connect and inspire other people that you're playing for. And I think that's a metaphor for being a human being, a leader and being a musician. And therefore for me it's a very sort of a true reflection of how I wish to be, which is keep going within me, be a lifelong learner, keep trying to improve who I am me be a lifelong learner. Keep trying to improve who I am and then be able to connect with others and to inspire them to become the best version of persons that they can also, in turn, become.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's lovely. That's lovely. Let's switch gears yet again, and this is something that I think we're living every day. There's more in the news about this every day.
Speaker 3:Many of us are not sure how to feel about this but it's the so-called America First narrative, this strategy around tariffs and domestic-only production, and wondering where are we around global affairs and global trade, et cetera, what? I guess I'm not asking you to look into your crystal ball, but maybe I am. And what's what? How is this going to turn out? How is this? How should we be thinking about this? Uh, do you have any, any, any thoughts to help us, help guide us as we, as we live this?
Speaker 1:uh, live this thing out I love the little messages that are popping up and and clearly it's a topic we're going there we are going right in there straight in the trenches I love, I love it too there's nothing to move this, like we have to talk about this and, of course, it's such an important thing.
Speaker 1:um, you know, we, I believe that we're living in a very, uh, dynamic world. It's uh, it's volatile, it's unpredictable, um, and it's a world of poly crisis if you think about it. And this is one of those elements. But if you think about it, step back and say, well, you know, there's a there's a unprecedented level of challenges, whether it is about diversity, equity, inclusion, climate technology, you know, risks of technology, all of them. There's significant sort of challenges that we in fact, there's some sort of a trust deficit in the world around. So there are many challenges, but I passionately believe that when the world around us or situations seem overwhelming, if we all go, the solution, I believe, doesn't lie outside of us. It lies actually within us. And if we go back to our own core values, it can help give us more clarity. So, for example, if we go through the value, to address hate with compassion, to address lack of understanding with curiosity, lack of understanding with curiosity, to address climate change with a sense of responsibility, to address the risks of technology with a greater sense of morality and what's right and what's optimistic.
Speaker 1:I think leaders have to be peddlers of hope. We have to be optimistic, you know, and optimism is an infinitely better universe to live in. So that's the first thing. Right, look for opportunities in a crisis is the first thing. The second thing is at least I find that you know that whenever we feel that, how can this be, how can people think this, or how can globalization not be right, any sort of when it kind of things that really don't make sense to us, I think at that time reminding ourselves to be curious and reminding ourselves to say that truth does not lie in extremities.
Speaker 1:Truth very often lies in the middle, you know, and maybe the reason for our dissonance is that perhaps we don't understand. Could that be? And I think, just for a moment, stepping back and at least trying to understand an alternative point of view can be quite powerful. So, for example, in what we talked about, there is, of course, the truth that globalization will lift all boats, right, and that was the whole argument. But challenge it yourself and say did globalization lift all boats equally? Just for a moment, think that and explore that, and it'll give you a very different perspective of what reality might be, and then you might realize that truth is not at extremities, it's probably somewhere in the middle, and it'll give us a better understanding of what is going on, as opposed to feeling completely helpless. So I think that's the second thing, which is curiosity, right.
Speaker 1:So first is optimism, second is curiosity, and the third thing, I think, is when I feel very overwhelmed with what's happening around me, I just embrace. I embrace the value of courage, which is okay. I can't really influence the world around me. What can I influence and what can I change, and what is it that I can do, not what other people should be doing? So, as a leader, I need to make sure that my company stays innovative and stays competitive.
Speaker 1:Now, as this landscape changes, is there an opportunity to be innovative? Hell, yes, I mean there is even more need to be innovated in this complicated world, like how will I actually build supply chains globally that are more resilient with this new world order? I have to be very innovative. And then even things like being competitive how might I use more technology to drive high levels of productivity is still very relevant. So I don't think it is binary.
Speaker 1:You know this innovation and competitiveness and the external change in policy. I would say of course there are linkages, but as leaders there's very little we can do with policy, but there's everything that we can do on innovation and competitive behavior. In fact, very often I ask myself and I remind myself that, listen, there's very little that I can control in the world around me, but I can completely control the world that I steward, in, the company that I happen to lead to lead. And why can't I make that company, that community, that family, a shining example of the world that I want to see, which is inclusive, embracing, respectful, compassionate and caring, and perhaps, and just perhaps, that each one of us were to do that and have that mindset of I'm going to make my world a shining example of the world I wish to see. Perhaps you will start, you know, creating ripples of change.
Speaker 3:Eden, that is so helpful and you know, as leaders, as board members, we're all kind of grappling with what do we do, how do we do it, what can we control, what can we not control? I've been feverishly taking notes because what you're saying is so profound. Let's stay on in our companies, et cetera, and how we're thinking about some of the things that are values that, frankly, you know, I don't think we ever thought of them as controversial, but they are being politicized to some degree and even outright challenged, et cetera. But how do we give us some nuggets around, how we think about staying true to those values and ensuring that those values still exist in our organizations that we have held dear for maybe forever for most people?
Speaker 1:for maybe forever for most people. Yeah, I think such an important question again, and I think the only way to ensure that our values and the ones that you mentioned around greater sense of responsibility and inclusion, a sense of service to people, community, planet, the only way that these values are going to be bulletproof is if we embrace a new model of capitalism. And this new model of capitalism is one in which there's a virtuous cycle between purpose and profit, where we actually drive profitability, because without profitability there can be no purpose. So we drive profitability through innovation, through being more competitive, but purpose in turn should also drive profitability. Purpose cannot be random acts of charity. Purpose has to be profit accretive, because only then, when that connection happens, will we get support from our boards, from our shareholders, from our stakeholders, and capital will continue to flow to the company, because whatever we are doing in terms of good is reinforcing the brand and strengthening the business model and therefore, this building, this flywheel of do good and service and serve all our stakeholders, our people, our community planet, but, most importantly, our shareholders. Our shareholders must be served and their primary requirement, of course, is return on capital. Rightly so, because it's their money and therefore the challenge is can purpose be profit-accretive, for it to be sustainable? And I would say yes, it is difficult but it must be and it can be done, and I'll give you a few examples.
Speaker 1:And I think the only way to make profit, have a virtuous cycle with purpose is to lead through our values. So when we lead through our values, it elevates our ambition on what we want to do in our broader community, with our people and our planet, and also helps strengthen our business model. So just bear with me for a minute and I'll explain how. So imagine that the enterprise value is like a stick, and the longer that the stick is, the more enterprise value you create. So the job of a leader is to make sure that the stick becomes longer and longer and therefore you're able to create more enterprise value, then have more capital that's attracted to the business and you're able to sustain profit and purpose. So let's the question is can purpose be profit accretive? So I'll give you a few examples around how it can the two ends of the stick. The top end of the stick is customer value proposition. Bottom end of the stick is employee value proposition. So if what it means is that if we do purposeful activities that strengthen the customer value proposition. It gives us pricing power and therefore that stick can move up If we do things to strengthen employee value proposition. It strengthens retention, engagement, higher productivity, costs go down and that stick elongates. So two specific examples of both so in the customer value proposition at Panera, for example, we made the climate footprint on our food visible and transparent to all customers. Right, I don't know if you guys have seen it, but we have something called cool foods in Panera and these are climately responsible products. Now, once we do that, will it strengthen our customer value proposition? Absolutely. Will customers be willing to pay more price because this is climately responsible? I think so, and therefore the top end of that goes up.
Speaker 1:Similarly, on the employee value proposition you know the pandemic happened and we had to furlough about 25,000 people and instead of just furloughing them, we spoke to CVS and Walmart and asked them to hire our people, because they were actually hiring a lot of people. So we said we are furloughing about 25,000 people, can you employ them temporarily and give them back? So that you must be crazy. We're not giving them back, but, yes, we'll offer them employment. So if you do that, you're demonstrating to your employees that you matter, I care for you, and once you do that, you build trust and you build trust. They deepen engagement, reduce turnover, increase productivity and lower costs.
Speaker 1:And therefore, these two purpose-led activities of caring for climate gives you pricing power. This purpose-led activity of caring for your people gives you greater efficiency and therefore it increases your enterprise value. And because it increases enterprise value, yes, now the board is saying, yeah, okay, that makes sense Because you're strengthening the business model and your activities for good and purpose are connected with the business. They're not just random acts of charity. So that's, I think, what is required. It's a new business model of profit and purpose which then becomes independent of anything else that is happening in the world around us, because there is the shareholders, there's the capital, there's the business activity, there's enterprise value creation and on that roadmap, you also have people, community and climate.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's very insightful, neeraj. I mentioned earlier that I know people who worked in organizations that you've led and what's interesting is some of them are frontline employees, some of them are middle managers, some of them are executives, and they all do say the same thing about you and your leadership. And I've been around this thing long enough to know that that's pretty rare. You might get one of those groups to say something nice about the top executive, but what about your leadership and the way you think of the employee, value proposition and culture do you think has contributed to that kind of reaction and that kind of reputation that you have garnered from all of those different groups in each of those companies?
Speaker 1:So, beverly, firstly, thank you for sharing that. That means the world to me. You know, I really believe that, as leaders, the only legacy that truly matters is people legacy. When people can turn around and say, well, you know, you sort of influenced me, impacted me to be just a little bit better, I think there's no higher compliment. Enterprise legacies are, you know, transient, everybody can do better than what you did.
Speaker 1:But I think people legacy is more enduring and therefore more important. I would say that it's it's kind of this mindset of the, of thinking of leadership as a privilege of being, you know, like, really looking after and caring and being responsible for the people in your care and taking that very seriously, and and, and, and, and and. Therefore this having this kind of almost like a servant mindset, of like I'm here to serve the people who are eventually serving my customers, and if I love and care for the people who are in my care, they will pass that forward to customers who will eventually come back more frequently and therefore that makes business sense. So I think it is not only a personal conviction and I just love people. It's the most inspiring thing in the world is just to connect with people.
Speaker 1:I think that's what matters most. So, apart from that, just my personal wiring of loving people, I think even business it makes business sense that if you love your people and they are happy and engaged, they will then take care of customers who are then happy and satisfied, engaged, who will then come back, and if they come back, you will make more revenue and drive more profits and eventually be more successful. So, and you know my commitment, like I said in my next chapter, my mission is to be somebody who helps unlock human potential. I'm not committing myself full time to do that and, as you mentioned, in various different ways, so it's like a calling for me, like which is, you know, my purpose to be is to actually help other people be the best versions of who they can be.
Speaker 3:Help other people be the best versions of who they can be. You know, one of the things that you know when I was an executive, I, you know, in my later years reported to the CEO and was often sort of the confidant of the CEO etc. And one of the things they, without exception, say is just lonely as the CEO, I mean, they don't have peers and they have so much pressure from so many constituents. I'm just curious in your executive coaching, do you coach CEOs? Because for my purpose, for my part, I think CEOs need someone to talk to, someone to share with someone who has been in their shoes. Just a plug for you and your business to coach some CEOs, because I do think people work for people and if the CEO and everybody that he or she reports, you know, reports to that person, it matters, it will matter in the organization tremendously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, but you know. But I had another realization as I'm pivoting from being a practitioner to now wanting to be a catalyst to unlock potential. As a practitioner, as a CEO, you're expected to always have the answers and even when you don't have the answers, you're expected to have some answers. And I realize now I need to have the questions. I don't have to have the answers are incredibly powerful to help people find their own answers in their own way, which, of course, I think is richer developmentally than being given the answers. I'm finding that journey to be absolutely fascinating and I'm really digging deep into that and saying, okay, how can I become better at holding myself back and really giving the space and the opportunity for the coachee to explore and find their own sort of inner strength and who they are and keep developing? And I find that to be an absolutely fascinating journey.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. Let me pivot back to Aisha. If she were here today, what do you think she would say about our world and how might that influence? Kind of, what you're doing is shaping the minds of our future leaders. What would she say?
Speaker 1:You know, aisha, like I was saying earlier, she had these three values of courage, of keep focusing on what you can do and not what's happening to you, but also of gratitude and generosity, as Aisha lay dying in her bed in the last couple of months when she wrote this book, my Little Epiphanies. In that book she writes about you know reasons to be grateful, and she wrote that she was grateful that she could still hear the sound of her mother's laughter and that she could still breathe and she still was alive. She was grateful for that. So I think Ayesha would say listen, just zoom out a little bit and see the world in its full glory and find ways there's.
Speaker 1:there are a billion reasons to be grateful and I think don't lose perspective of that. So I think each one of us on this call, I think, if you really think about it, there are a gazillion reasons for us to be grateful. I think we just forget it and we just lock and load on something that might be more troubling us. So that's one. The second is, you know, when I lost Aisha, I lost myself and I found it very, very hard to exist and to move forward and I was looking for answers. And when I do that, I often, you know, like many of us, open the Bible or whatever. People have different religious beliefs I have.
Speaker 1:I go to Aisha's book and I open it, hoping that she'll talk to me, and I read the following in her book, which said if you can't change your own life, there's always someone else's. And she wrote that in her book, which said if you can't change your own life, there's always someone else's. And she wrote that in her book and that kind of stayed with me that you know like I can find healing by living a life of generosity. There are always people who are less privileged, less fortunate, who have infinitely less than what we have and how might I actually be of service? How can I help, inspire and serve those who need it the most? So I would think that's what she would remind us of. Is that zoom out, be grateful and find somebody that you can help?
Speaker 3:Beautiful. I'll close our prepared kind of talk on that. I see a couple questions in the chat for you. One of them is just thinking of you yourself as a first-generation immigrant, just thinking of you yourself as a first-generation immigrant how do you feel about sort of the current immigration policy that we are experiencing and how can we, how should we be thinking about that?
Speaker 1:You know, it's kind of again colored by my values. I have deep gratitude to this country. You know, like I was given the opportunity, I was embraced and I'm living the life that I am. The second thing I feel is that it is also incumbent upon people who are coming in to really, you know, do their very best to assimilate. And you know, when I lived in Holland for five years, I lived in Germany for five years. I lived in different cultures, I worked, you know I've lived in six countries, worked across 50.
Speaker 1:And I felt that the best way to connect is to really first demonstrate respect for the culture in which you're going into, by learning the language, by learning for the culture in which you're going into, by learning the language, by learning about the culture, by truly being respectful. And I think I feel that whatever one wants, one must be prepared to be. If I want respect, I must be respectful. If I want to be embraced, I must be embracing. If I want friends, I must be a friend. And I think we can all learn from that. And I think it's good to be open-minded and look at the extremities and say what if this was true? What if that was true? And then find our whole. The measure of truth is always somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, it is very complicated and it's definitely above my pay grade, erica, do I see any other?
Speaker 2:new questions. There was one that was asking if you have a podcast.
Speaker 1:No, I don't have a podcast. I think it's a good idea. I wanted to just, since this is a group of leaders women leaders if I may, I wanted to just share some thoughts there and I wanted to share with all of you that I'm writing two books. One book is called Everything Changes, that who we are is not a function of what happens to us, but how we respond to what happens to us. And how we respond to what happens to us is a function of how we speak to ourselves. You know, the person we speak to the most is ourselves, of how we speak to ourselves. You know, the person we speak to the most is ourselves, and very often what we say to ourselves is pretty damn negative. And I think the self-voice and the conversation can either be uplifting or be a critic.
Speaker 1:And I'm unpacking that in that book Everything Changes. And the second book is called the Three of Life. The Three of Life there are three things to do to live a life of legacy and impact, self-mastery, trust and then impacting the world. So those, both of those projects are underway. Once my books, you know, are finally published, etc. Then I'll probably build sort of a 360 around that in a way that one can speak about it and share some of the insights, because I'm a deep believer that I must share what I have learned so that you don't have to go through what I went through to learn what I have. You know.
Speaker 1:And I think and I want to sort of leave that behind and and there are plenty of comments in the chat saying that one.
Speaker 2:You do need a podcast and when you do release your books, we would love to have you back to talk about those books. Maybe do like a little quick read before we have you and then ask you questions about them. There was another question in the chat that I want to chime in because I think it's important, and it was from Michelle, and it says is it scary or does it take practice to transition from the answer person to the question person as you grow in your own journey? A great question.
Speaker 1:It is monumentally scary and you know, change and transition is always scary. You know, like when I stopped being the CEO and I became chairman and then when I just stopped off the chairman, you know I had sort of you know, real sort of emotional roller coaster around. Is this the end? And is and is who I am defined by what I do? And is my self-worth defined by my job title? And now that I'm no longer holding the job title, will I treat myself differently? Will my wife treat me differently? Will my children treat me differently? Will my friends treat me differently? And you have that inner conversation. And then, finally, after much inner turmoil, I started telling myself no, your self-worth is not what you do, but it's who you are. I didn't believe it at first, but I kept saying it to myself and then I said, you know, who I am can be infinitely accretive I can.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of a role I'm playing in a movie set that I was letting a company now chairman this and that, and now I'm just me and I want to be a coach, I want to be a book writer, I want to go and teach classes at Harvard or Kellogg, you know, I want to be on a few boards. It's a different role that I'm playing and I think I've always been inspired by reinvention and learning. I feel scared, but then I embrace the learning. Once I embrace the learning, then I get inspired. So I think for me the process is always like oh my God, I don't think I can do it. What can I do? You know I'm losing this and then say, okay, I'm going to just jump into it and I'm going to learn and be the very best I can be at whatever I choose to do, you know. So that then kind of fuels me.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that because it's not only at the end of one's career right, but as we experience career transitions, whether they're planned or unplanned, as we take breaks from our career to care for loved ones or for whatever reason, it's so important not to attach our whole identity into a job title or into a project, or even you know there are many business owners here. So even with your business, because if that business fails, or even if it succeed and you have to sell it and your whole identity is attached to that company. So I just think that what you said and how you're closing us is so impactful. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women all eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to wwwvestherco and apply today.
