VEST Her Podcast
A podcast exploring the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and sharing stories of women navigating careers and building power collectively.
VEST Her Podcast
Confronting Ageism at Work
In this episode we talked about Ageism at Work with Maureen Wiley Clough, host of the acclaimed podcast It Gets Late Early. In it we unpacked the unique challenges women face as we progress in our career and share actionable strategies for overcoming age-related obstacles and redefining our career trajectories at any age.
For our guest full bio and show notes go to www.vesther.co/podcast
This episode is brought to you by VEST, a peer network for women professionals and investment fund investing in women led companies building solutions for the care economy and future of work.
This conversation was part of a more intimate coaching session with VEST Members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. If you'd like to learn more about joining our peer community, go to www.vesther.co to learn more.
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
We know that hiring managers and recruiters are biased. There was a recent survey that was done in the Financial Times that said that around 50% of recruiters thought that 57% was quote too old to be hired. So I mean, that's recruiters, that's HR. They should know better, right? I would expect more bias from hiring managers. However, another survey said that 42% of hiring managers were biased against candidates based on age. That's where we are in society, so it's not if, but when you will be judged based on your age. That's just the uncomfortable truth.
Speaker 1:50% of people, according to the World Health Organization, are ageist and harbor ageist beliefs, and there's a reason for that. It's been drilled into us by this narrative that's in the media, that's in society, in our culture. My own children will say, mom, you're old, like it's a diss, right and it's ridiculous, and I'm like I didn't teach you this. A couple of weeks ago I was watching Alvin and the Chipmunks with them on Netflix and there was so much ageist, stereotypical bias injected into that kids programming. So, like it starts, young Ageism is something that will touch everybody. It will touch the young, it will touch the older, the younger, the older. It's going to get us all, and so we need to just be aware of it and try to shift our mentality.
Speaker 2:In this episode we talk about ageism at work with Maureen Wiley-Klau, host of the acclaimed podcast it Gets Late Early. In it we unpack the unique challenges women face as we progress in our career and we also share actionable strategies for overcoming age-related obstacles and redefining our career trajectories at any age. For our guest's full bio and show notes, go to wwwvestherco. Forward slash podcast. Slash podcast. This episode is brought to you by Vest, a peer network for women professionals and investment fund investing in women-led companies, building solutions in the care economy and future of work. If you enjoy the episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. This conversation was part of a more intimate coaching session with Vest members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. If you want to learn more about joining our peer community, go to wwwvastrco. What led you to focus on this work and why does it matter so much to you?
Speaker 1:Well, I want to. I want to start, but start by saying no career path is really truly linear, and my mind is a perfect example of that. And I even left out my brief foray into the law. So I was a paralegal even before I was a journalist. So all that is to say, I really kind of fell into my work in tech and started climbing the corporate ladder, doing what we were all told we should do, which is keep on gunning for the next position and climbing that ladder.
Speaker 1:And I was at this tech company and at age 37, my colleague called me a dino and I was like, oh my gosh. And the reality was, when I looked around, he wasn't really wrong. I was one of the oldest people at the organization and the only people really who are older than I was were at the director, senior director, vp and C-suite levels, and I thought that's insane. How is that possible? Why is this the case? And I started asking around because I was curious. I was like, is anyone else seeing this? Because I realized when I did a retrospective analysis, even at my past companies that were market leaders, like Bloomberg and SAP Concur, I'd noticed the same thing. So it wasn't just what I saw at this VC-backed startup, which you might kind of associate with a potentially younger workforce right Based on tons of stereotypes and just the way the startup ecosystem tends to work.
Speaker 1:And what I found is that I was far from the only one thinking about this. It was on everybody's mind. Aging out was a thing, and yet no one was talking about it, and that struck me as bizarre, especially when we were talking all about inclusion and diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. And so it led me down the path of researching it, and what I found was pretty staggering, and it was the fact that 92% of organizations fail to recognize age as a characteristic in their organization. And so I kept getting deeper and deeper into the work and learning more and more, and it just struck me as the oddest thing that we have this narrative and this stereotype and this bias against people, depending on what year they happen to have been born, like we're all the oldest we've ever been right now and the youngest we'll ever be right now. So it just makes no sense. And you know, in this super weird world that's so divisive, it's the one thing we kind of all share. We're all getting older every minute together. And so you know, I was approaching my 40th birthday and I thought you know what? Why not go for it? I've lived long enough to know that things will work out and I'll figure it out. And so I put it out into the world, and I'm very glad that I did.
Speaker 1:I would have lived with a lot of regret had I not, and in fact that's actually the book that I read that got me to the point where I was ready to take the leap. Because, by the way, I know I think Kristen was saying she's planning to launch a podcast. It's going to be scary, it's going to be super vulnerable. You're going to be, frankly, probably a little embarrassed. I know I was. I was like, what will people think?
Speaker 1:But the reason I was able to take the leap was not only just my lived experience knowing things will work out and the sky won't fall but also reading this book by Daniel Pink called the Power of Regret, and his book showed me that one of the biggest regrets that people have at the end of their lives are what are called boldness regrets. So a lack of action, inaction, right, something you could have done, that you elected not to, and what I couldn't live with was the thought I would never know what could have been if I had launched this podcast, and that's what drove me to do it and fast forward to tomorrow when I interview Daniel Pink. It's kind of a beautiful full circle moment, so I kind of went in a lot of different directions there, but hopefully that somewhat answered your question.
Speaker 2:No, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. And yeah, what a full circle. I can't wait to listen to that episode.
Speaker 1:I'm really excited for it.
Speaker 2:One of the things that, when we were preparing for this session, that just struck us, the whole team, when we were reading the stats, is that research indicates that 80% of women experience ageism at work. Yet, as you mentioned I can remember the actual quote that you said over 90 percent or something, ageism in the workplace. It's not even pinpointed as something that we should be intentional about. Tell us what are some of the most subtle ways you've experienced ageism showing up at work, like for young people, but also for people over 40.
Speaker 1:And that's a really important call out because really ageism is a bias against people based on their chronological age. So it can go against young people, it can go against old people, older people I like to say older instead of young. Young I should say younger and older. That's better. I'm trying to work on that. It's been drilled into us by society, right, we say these things and we don't even give it a second thought. But you know, first and foremost, it's important to recognize that we all have been brought up in an ageist culture. 50% of people, according to the World Health Organization, are ageist and harbor ageist beliefs. And there's a reason for that. It's been drilled into us by this narrative that's in the media, that's in society, in our culture, and so we all have to recognize that we have this. I mean, I think 50% of those people are lying. I think everyone's a little bit ageist because it's been drilled into us. My own children will say, mom, you're old, like it's a diss, right, and it's ridiculous, and I'm like I didn't teach you this. But then, for example, a couple of weeks ago, I was watching Elvin and the Chipmunks with them on Netflix and there was so much ageist, stereotypical bias injected into that kids programming, so like it starts young and it's really problematic. So it's everywhere and we have a ton of internal work to do to get ourselves out of it. And again, people don't even know what's wrong. People casually throw out age-related bias and stereotypes all the time and they think nothing of it. They think it's totally open season. So that's the first thing to recognize.
Speaker 1:But ultimately, ageism is something that will touch everybody. It will touch the young, it will touch the older, the younger, the older. It's going to get us all, and so we need to just be aware of it and try to shift our mentality. So, yeah, 80% of people, as you said, 80% of women experience this in the workplace. Other surveys have shown people across all genders say 90% have seen or experienced workplace discrimination.
Speaker 1:It's a really prominent issue. That is just kind of the elephant in the room that people for some reason aren't willing to touch, and so it's something that I think we can't turn our backs on. It's something we have to focus on, especially as our demographics are shifting rapidly towards having an older workforce. So that's just the reality, and the companies that embrace older workers and employ people across all generations, those are the ones that are going to win, and there's a lot of research behind what the productivity and innovation potential is for intergenerational teams. So it's really a mandate for companies. They can't just continue going on the way they have and marginalizing older workers, because those are the pool of workers we're going to have to draw from.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's critical. Yeah, yeah, for sure I, I I've been privileged enough that I've had a lot of friends and I don't say I love that you said, you know, trying to catch ourselves with the narrative and the societal norms that we've grown up with. I don't say older, I say wiser women. You know like I'm always surrounded myself with wiser women and one of the things that they've always shared, like one subtle example of what they say, is that people just make assumptions that after you know 55, say like they don't want to look for exciting new opportunities, to push career transitions or to continue to contribute and they're like, hey, I still feel young and excited and like ready to go and ready to start companies or ready to make a complete career shift.
Speaker 1:And that can come up in the workplace all the time. I had a guest from the company Textio that works on bias in the workplace. They do performance reviews, anti-bias training and there's a software that goes in and helps reduce the amount of discriminatory language within job descriptions as well, and she came on the show and she said that you know, it can show up in ways like not giving an assignment to an older person in the organization. That would be groundbreaking, or something that would stretch them, giving them sort of more of what she called the babysitting responsibilities, right. So kind of letting the younger stars put forward that work that will make them, you know, push through the organization and grab all these accolades, just assuming that they wouldn't want those roles right. And you know the word responsible is used to describe people over 40, like a crazy amount of times over 40 versus under 40. And so it's like the way we think the language that we use in these performance reviews and whatnot it all reflects these biases and people don't necessarily see them as wrong. They don't notice them. It's just really it is very subtle and it can be, you know, writing something like hungry in a job description. We know that that's coded language for young like no one. And I look at these job descriptions for tech companies sometimes and I laugh because it's like what 40 plus year old is going to see a job description that says like young, hungry or, excuse me, hungry, ninja rockstar, and think that's me? It's like it doesn't compute. So we're precluding certain people from applying to these jobs, so we're just making sure that the pool is even smaller than it should be by the language we use. It's important to really consider all of that as you're putting these things together. So it can be extremely subtle and, again, people don't even know that it's wrong.
Speaker 1:Great example Just yesterday or a couple of days ago, I was sent this screenshot by someone in my audience on LinkedIn and it was a Slack emoji, sort of search result, and he had written tired and what came up wasn't like someone yawning, wasn't snoozing, wasn't a bed, wasn't any of that. It was people with white hair. No joke, it was like the face emoji with white hair. And I was like, oh my gosh, that is a perfect encapsulation of what unconscious biases and how subtly this can come in. And I'll tell you when I did a post about it on LinkedIn yesterday, it went pretty bonkers, but there were plenty of people who were like you're making this problem up, this is not an issue. What are you talking about? Who cares? Like making light of it, and the reality is those sorts of things get into our subconscious and we think of older people as tired. We don't give them the promotion, we don't consider them for the job.
Speaker 1:And I also want to underscore something like culture fit. I think is a really toxic concept, because what that means is more people like us, and what it can be used to do is discriminate against people who are different. Right, and it creates these homogenous work cultures. So I think we need to shift from culture culture fit to culture add. So lots of ways.
Speaker 2:I love that, yeah, and I'm just wondering from Vest members that are here, if you have an example of how you felt, the subtle or very intentional you know. If you have an experience that you'd like to share, please put it in the chat, because we would love to just, you know, have examples that we can relate to, because I think that one of the ways in which we combat this is just by having conversations, right, because I do think that a lot of times like and again it's like cross generational I, you know, you, we've we're talking about wiser people but I've also experienced, I remember, as a young professional, I don't know how many times I was told wait your turn, even though I was performing, I was delivering, wait your turn, it's not your turn yet. You have to wait, you know. So I'm just curious if any VAST members have any additional examples that you can share of how you've experienced this challenge at work.
Speaker 2:And, maureen, you mentioned some of that pushback right, like, share with us, maybe, and it can be from your own experience of, from people that you've hosted in your podcast. What are some of the ways that you would coach women to call it out when they see it or push back with the hard thing is like without you know, because, as women, the other thing that we have to deal with is like just overall bias, right, and so when we pull out something or when we pronounce something, it's always like, oh well, you're now you're being confrontational or now you're making up a problem that doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, it's so. It's so challenging. We walk a tightrope every day, don't we?
Speaker 2:So how do we call it out and how do we push back without risking our careers?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one person who came on my show had a really brilliant example of how she pushed back in a way that wasn't super confrontational, but she just basically called it out. So I don't know if you're familiar with the way the interview process goes at Amazon, but it is man, it's grueling I've been through it before. It's wild. And they actually do it in such a way so as to try to prevent bias from seeping in, which is a laudable concept. But this one candidate had come through this. This woman was a recruiter at Amazon who was on my show and this man had come through the interview pipeline and he was passing everything with flying color colors. He was, you know, checking every box. He was fantastic, he was in his sixties. Okay, so they all after these interviews across the team there were like 10 interviews or something, because that's what Amazon does they all came into a room and that's when people basically said like I'm inclined to hire or I'm not, and they went around the room, started talking about this candidate and these things started coming up like Ooh, do you think he might get bored here? Oh, maybe he's a little bit overqualified, I don't know. And she just saw this and she was like, wait a minute, this is the perfect candidate. And so she just she stood up and she said hey, I'm going to say something that I'm not sure any of you are comfortable saying. But are you concerned about his age? Because we can't do that. That's protected characteristic and we have to evaluate him on the basis of his merits and his potential and that's not something we can do. And as soon as she said that, everyone kind of realized, oh gosh, that is actually what it is. So she called out the unconscious bias in a way that wasn't accusatory, but she just was like, hey, we can't do that. And it flipped the switch and they ended up hiring him and he stayed for longer than the average person's tenure which is another fun fact about older workers is their tenure actually is longer. And there's a lot of concern around oh well, maybe that person will retire or whatever. But the reality is that's not really how it goes with the data. But she made a huge difference in that organization because this guy was an excellent employee and she made a huge difference in his life just by calling it out. And I think you're absolutely right that we women do have to walk that tightrope and we have to do so in like a very judicious, like non-hostile way. And even when we're not being hostile, we're sometimes accused of being hostile, which is fun, and I wish I had the silver bullet answer for that one.
Speaker 1:But I think, just asking people to pause and consider, you know, for example, if I remember back in my own career, when I was at a tech company, there was this candidate who's excellent for the role. We needed somebody with more tenure, someone who understood the new world into which we were going was a new initiative, a startup initiative within this established company that I was in charge of, and one of these people came through and he was just amazing. And then there was this other person who was great, but he was probably 15 years younger than this guy, a lot less experience. You guess who gets the role? It's the younger guy, right, and it was because he was a culture fit. So I was not in a position at that point where I could really understand that that was what was going on. But now, looking back, I'm like that's 100% what it was. He wasn't the culture fit and he wasn't fitting into sort of the youthful, dominant culture of the organization and that was it. So I think even having the conversation around culture fit, culture ad versus culture fit could be a way to do it. But also sometimes, sometimes you just got to call it out and you obviously if the law is on your side, in which case you know, in this case which it is you have that level of protection-ish. Allegedly, we can get into some of the downfalls of the Age Discrimination and Employment Act and how it fails us sometimes later in this conversation if we want to go down that path, but there are situations in which you just have to address it head on.
Speaker 1:But I think trying to create an organization that has intergenerational collaboration and communication is one really, really good way to combat this, because we're all so much more alike than we are different. Everybody likes flexibility in their workplace, right? That's not bad for older people or younger people or better for one or the other. It's just great for everyone.
Speaker 1:So we need to have the opportunity to speak across generations, which is something that most organizations today are doing a really terrible job with, and it's holding us back from having the understanding that we're all in this thing together and we don't need to pit generation against generation. So it's just let's get people collaborating. Let's get people in mentorship opportunities and you kind of hinted at this earlier, but mentorship goes both ways. I have a Gen Z social media editor, slash consultant, who is an incredible teacher, who basically coaches and is often almost a therapist for me, and he's so incredibly wise. I learned so much from him and I like to think he learned a lot from me too. So it's not one directional, it's not simply like the elders passing down their wisdom, it is both ways, and I think the sooner we realize this, the better our workplaces will be.
Speaker 2:I love that and I love the call to action and like let's assess ourselves first and make sure you know we did share an exercise too in our Monday newsletter, if you missed it, on how to assess our own biases and see if we have applied some of these ageism ourselves right, when we're evaluating people not for their ability to perform, but rather because we make assumptions based on age. And I love how you said, you know, let's not pit generations against each other, let's work together to and approach each other with a curiosity level and a learning mindset, rather than like let's put people in boxes. One of my biggest pet peeves is when I go to and somebody mentioned I'm like kind of looking at the chat and we're going to take a minute to like kind of do an evaluation of the chat. But one of my pet peeves is when I go to traditional, uh produced events and immediately people start making fun of Gen Zs or the younger generation or immediately said, oh well, they're lacy, they just don't have the same work ethic, you know, and then they just put everybody on the same bucket, right, so yeah, so I love that you kind of call that out in your in your comments.
Speaker 2:I want to take a minute because it's been hard for me to keep up with the chat and I know that there's been a lot of commentary, which I love. Gabby, do you want to keep us up? Is there something that we need to address in the chat or somebody has any questions or anything that we should take a minute and respond to?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we had a question come up here, but I wanted to point out just some of the members shared kind of their experience. I know Srajita mentioned just the double standard as not only ageism but also for men and women, as younger men referred to as younger gentlemen while women are referred to as girl. And then we also had another member that mentioned she's the youngest partner on her team. So even though she has a decade of experience, her partners have over 400 or over 100, excuse me years of experience and so sometimes she feels like she worries about speaking up in that kind of context. Another member just mentioned for her it's come up in a few ways over dependence on helping with onboarding and training, being openly surprised when she is open to new challenges and or just making assumptions without talking to her about it. But we did just have a new question in here. I don't know if Christy wants to unmute herself and ask, but she just mentioned that she read about taking off certain dates on your resume, such as university graduation. Just thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you want to say anything about that? I'm sorry, christy, did you want to speak up or is that sufficient? That's sufficient. Yeah, that's my question. It's a good question.
Speaker 1:It's one I hear often and I'm sort of of two minds about it. On one hand, I think if you really need to get work right away, absolutely, I mean, that's the reality. We know that hiring managers and recruiters are biased. There was a recent survey that was done in the Financial Times that said that 50, around 50% of recruiters thought that 57 was quote too old to be hired. So I mean, that's recruiters, that's HR. They should know better. Right, I would expect more bias from hiring managers. However, another survey said that 42% of hiring managers were biased against candidates based on age. So I was shocked that it wasn't more for the hiring managers and less for the recruiters.
Speaker 1:But that's where we are in society. So it's not if, but when you will be judged based on your age. That's just the uncomfortable truth. So if you need to help yourself out and get more at bats, I think it's a really good idea actually to remove early experience as much as I despise saying that and graduation dates. That's just the reality we live in. So I think we need to optimize for what our current situation is and build for a better future. But then on the flip side, I will say if you have the privilege of being choosier and taking a little bit longer with your job search, leave it all on there, because we should be proud of our experience and our age is not something we should apologize for. Our age is an asset, not a liability, and so if you can go forward with that mentality and find the right organization that values you for who you are and not when you were born, that's optimal, of course. So I would also argue that a lot of organizations that would judge you based on age, those are not the ones that are a long-term fit for you. Those are not the places you want to build a career. But again, I just want to be really clear. I know sometimes we don't have that sort of privilege to wait and find the right thing. Sometimes we just need to earn money. So I see both sides on this one. But generally speaking, given we live in an ageist world, I advise people to and I try to make my show fun and lighthearted as much as possible laugh so we don't cry, kind of thing. So I tell them to Botox their resume because it's just helpful.
Speaker 1:Now, that said, gen Z is having a lot of trouble getting hired right now, which is also deeply unfair. So things are tough on both ends of the spectrum, which is also deeply unfair. So you know, things are tough on both ends of the spectrum. So you know, for Gen Z, I still also think, if you can, if you are a very recent graduate, it's tough to put your college graduation date on there right, for example. But we also are operating in a place where sometimes we just have what we have. We got to move forward with it, and our mindset and the way we show up is critically important. So if you come in with like your proverbial tail between your legs and you're apologizing for who you are, that energy is not going to get you where you need to go. So show up with confidence, no matter what age you are, and just own your experience and try to shift your own mindset, because that is going to be the best way for you to get a job at any age.
Speaker 2:You talk a lot about career reinvention on your podcast and we've actually we were reviewing the data on VAST We've launched in excuse me 2020. So we've been operating consistently for four years now and one of the things that we consistently see is that most women join the network primarily when they're experiencing a career or life transition right and they get that support system. And it's hard and we still very much struggle with career transitions and reinventing ourselves or staying true to you know. You don't necessarily have to go through a whole reinvention, but how do you? You know, how do you manage pivots, whether they are, there's a layoff or maybe you just want to experience a completely different career. So what advice do you have for women who are experiencing a pivot in their career? How can they get back on track if it's like not something that they forecasted or wanted to go through a pivot necessarily, but something unexpected? How can they feel more confident about their next move?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think first we need to recognize that the sort of old career trajectory is not really what we have in play anymore. I mean, you don't spend 30 years at one company and get a gold watch at your retirement anymore. That's just kind of not how the world is working. It's almost moving to more of a gig economy type portfolio career, and so I think, whether we like it or not, these sorts of pivots are going to be thrust upon us and it's something we just need to contend with. So I guess I would first find comfort in the fact that you're far from alone.
Speaker 1:I think people who join a community like this are doing absolutely the right thing. Because let me tell you, as someone who's pivoted out of corporate, this is lonely and it is hard and there are some days when you're going to want to quit. There's some days when you're going to want to scream at the top of your lungs at how excited you are. Like it's going to highs and lows are going to abound, and having a community around to ground you and to support you is really critical. So I applaud anyone who is going through this and joins best to help get them through Right. I would say you know, all of our life experience informs how we show up in the workplace and you can draw lessons from so much that's happened in your life, even if you're moving into a completely different arena, so people pivoting. You know you might feel a little uncomfortable, given you don't have necessarily a ton of experience in a different industry, but there are always lessons you can draw and apply to this new opportunity and this new world from your life, whether that's actually in the workplace or outside of it. So I would urge people to really think a little bit more openly and creatively about what they've done and draw inferences from what they've done in the past that could then be applied in the future. And then I'd also, you know, one thing that's really helped me is I've I've gotten through everything that's been thrown in my way right. You know like I have 42 years of lived experience of figuring it out and I draw confidence from that. The other thing that you might laugh at that kind of gives me confidence is I also have learned over time. No one really knows what they're doing. We're all just trying to figure it out as we go, like no one is a hundred percent ready for anything that they take on.
Speaker 1:And women, I think and I know I'm doing a broad generalization here, but I'm in a group of women, so you guys can hold me accountable if you think I'm wrong but I feel as though women in particular have a hard time with imposter syndrome, and I've seen this in my own work with my, the social media consultant I was talking to you about. I mean, he has so much confidence and he goes forward with just this pride and this assuredness that is. It's attractive Like you, you see it and you see what works right. So I actually I was laughing recently because I saw someone post I think it was on threads about how they would never work with a male executive coach or a male coach in any regard, because men don't understand their lives, and I was like, actually, sometimes it's good because they can flip a narrative in a way for you and empower you, because they embody that in their lives. I don't know where they get it and maybe it's the system you know being a lot more favorable to men in general, but it's something that I have used as inspiration and I've tried to carry that through. Does it always work? No, but it is a good sort of mentality, and I also want to say women.
Speaker 1:When it comes to money, we have a hard time. Again, broad generalization, but money's hard for us, and it's been really helpful for me to see how men frame money discussions and conversations. And especially if you're pivoting into something new, you're going to need to make money. That's going to be important, and so you have to figure out even if it's something newer for you. You have to figure out how to confidently ask for money and not devalue yourself, right? So goodness, yeah, we're going to get through everything. You have a lived experience that proves it. Take a deep breath. No one knows what's going on. You'll figure it out and get a community.
Speaker 4:So full disclosure I am one of those wiser candidates that Erica talked about. I loved that language, Looking for a next role, and I'm really privileged to have some time to find the right one. For candidates like me to seek certifications or micro-credentials to either develop new skills, emphasize skills I already have, or just even show a willingness to learn those new skills despite being wiser and if so, how do I evaluate best sources for those kinds of credentials?
Speaker 1:you know best sources for those kinds of credentials. First of all, brilliant thought right, because you are basically, by getting these credentials and by actively learning and upskilling and reskilling, you're showing people that you're not done yet, that you still have so much to learn and grow, and that's really, really important. I think that is something that, if you can demonstrate it by getting these sorts of credentials, that's only going to benefit you. So I highly recommend that you do that. I think be thoughtful about the types of skills that you want to get under your belt. For example, I think you know, in the world we live in, ai skills would be really imperative for you to develop, and that just really kind of pushes down that stereotype that you know wiser, wiser people don't want to learn new things or stuck in their ways. So I think that is a great way for for you to have demonstrable proof that that's not the way you operate.
Speaker 1:I would say also, if you're looking for new roles, try as much as you can to go back into your work experience and showcase the times when you have learned something and taken something from. You know soup to nuts and and built something from scratch, because, again, that shows a willingness to learn and grow. So emphasizing that in your past is really important as well. And as far as identifying the right places, that's a great question, and I'm actually looking to find a person to come on the show to talk specifically about upskilling and reskilling, because I think that's a really, really critical component of what we all need to do at any age, because the world is changing so fast. So we want to make sure that we are showcasing that on our LinkedIn, on our resumes and just in the way we show up in interviews. So, yeah, you're absolutely spot on doing that.
Speaker 4:Ah, Maureen, thank you Fantastic.
Speaker 2:I do think it's important to support women, you know, in figuring out how to increase performance, how to show up at work, how to upskill, all of those things. We talked about the imposter syndrome. I have my own thoughts about that, because I do think that a lot of the problems, as we've talked about here, are systemic in nature and have to do a lot more with the corporate workplace environment, which was not designed with us in mind or with a lot of people in mind, a matter of fact, and so I'm always looking for, like, okay, what advice do we have for women right on how do we navigate these challenges better? But also, how do we hold the system accountable right? And I earlier in the discussion you mentioned how the labor laws were failing us and maybe some of the HR structures are failing us. Can you give us a couple of examples on how that is and maybe how we can fix it or put it out there for anybody to have that has ideas?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, the system is definitely failing us and it is failing all of us not, you know, exactly at the same level, but it is failing all of us and I think, um, you know, allyship is really important. So making sure and this is actually one thing that I think is really, um, the sort of perverse beauty of ageism is it does get all of us, and so it gets men too. I've heard horrific stories of men just having their whole lives blown apart, and you know, a lot of men base their entire self-worth on their ability to provide and their careers and whatnot, and it really does decimate them too. So this is something we can all kind of arm ourselves together and fight. So I think that's a really kind of somewhat nice thing about ageism is that we can all band together. So the system is definitely broken for sure. I mean, since 1967, we've had federal legislation that protects people over the age of 40 from facing discrimination in the workplace, and yet I turned 40 and the only thing it protected me from was inbound, unsolicited requests to go interview at companies from recruiters. Like it dropped off a cliff the second I turned 40. So I know it's real. It can't be explained only by a poor market, it was just a steep decline. It was wild. So I know that it's happening and I think there are biases that are programmed into ATS systems, into recruiters algorithms, into what they're seeking, all of that. So it's very real. So the law exists and yet these things still happen.
Speaker 1:Age discrimination is still the toughest form of discrimination to prove. The Supreme Court decided a case back in the nineties that made it so that it had to be the what's called but for cause for someone's either termination or lack of promotion or lack of hiring, and that means that it can't be a part of a mixed motive case in any way, shape or form. It has to be the sole reason that you had that adverse decision happen to you. So it's incredibly difficult to prove. So these cases there are tons of claims every year and very few of them actually move in the right direction, and the settlements are often not quite what they should be. So the deck is certainly stacked against us when it comes to legal avenues, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:But there is bipartisan legislation in the works that would reduce the burden of proof to that of other forms of discrimination, so there's a little bit of hope there. It's bipartisan, so, hey, there we go. So I have a little bit of hope there. There's also recent legislation that happened in the state of Colorado in July of 2024, called the Job Application Fairness Act, and what that does is it ensures that no company is allowed to ask for any age identification markers on your application, so they can't ask you for your date of birth, they can't ask you for when you graduated, so on and so forth, which is great because it levels the playing field and it enables people to just get into interviews on the basis of what their accomplishments and potential are, which is really the way it should be. So I'm actually having someone on the show who helps push that through. Her name's Janine Vanderberg. She's awesome. She's part of an organization called Changing the Narrative in Colorado, and so I'm going to bring her on the show and figure out how we can push this forward and actually drive people to do a little activism here and get this to go. I think it should go across all 50 states personally.
Speaker 1:So there are certain things like that happening, but the system still is not what it needs to be, and I think that's because we have such a casual entrenched ageism in our culture. There's so many stereotypes that are just not even considered to be a problem, and you don't have to look any farther than just media memes, et cetera, the generational warfare to know why, because to us it's just nothing. So it's a cultural shift that needs to happen, and I think we're seeing some of that. I'm actually quite hopeful that there's going to be a change, and I'm already seeing the signs of it.
Speaker 1:Of course, I'm on the lookout for it, doing what I do, but I really do have hope that it's shifting, and I mean look at Wiser Than Me by Julia Louis-Dreyfus Elaine from Seinfeld that was the top podcast in 2023, for example. So there is an interest in seeing people represented across all ages and people into their older years as being held up as examples, which is what we need, right, and what I want to see more of is the more relatable type of person, rather than these Hollywood stars, right, because I'm sorry, I love JLo, but she's not very relatable to me, right, and so I want to see people doing things in their later years that are not necessarily Hollywood stars. But I really do think it's shifting. I truly do 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't wait to check out that new legislation. That's fantastic and I agree with you, it should be implemented across. I mean, if we're serious about performance, yeah, and hiring the best.
Speaker 1:It's still for companies and, at the end of the day, no company or industry is going to make a shift towards intergenerational employment and collaboration unless they realize that it's going to make them more money. That's the system we work in and the reality is there is evidence to support that a diverse workforce across all facets makes you more money and increases productivity and innovation. So that's the sort of research that I'm hoping continues to be done, because that is, I believe, the only thing that's going to move the needle. My least favorite term, but yeah.
Speaker 2:We always close this Maureen with, give us a couple of very tangible practical takeaways, right Like what can we be doing, either as individuals, on how we, you know, combat this on our own personal experience, or how do we build more inclusive and flexible environments for where ageism doesn't play a role in, you know, putting people in buckets or stereotyping?
Speaker 1:I think the first thing we need to do is work on ourselves. We have a crazy amount of internalized ageism. I mean, I know I do, I'm working through it for sure. As women, we are told that the worst thing we can do is get older. We're hawked anti-aging creams since you know what? We're 10 years old in this culture. It's crazy. So we have to really work on that.
Speaker 1:It starts with each of us, because we all bring ourselves to work and so we have these embedded narratives and biases that we bring with us and they are going to seep into the workplace without question. So start with yourself, start questioning that. Try to increase your intergenerational collaboration, communication, friendship. All of that helps. I mean, gosh, your mind just gets blown when you actually talk to people who are different from you and you realize again how much more similar we are than different. And you stop typecasting people when you get to know them right. So it's increased your circle, if you can.
Speaker 1:I know it's a little bit hard to do in a lot of our society, but we should try to intentionally work to create friendships and opportunities to get to know people of different ages. Highly recommend that. And then I would say and this goes back to somewhat of the internal narrative, right? But if you can shift your mindset to see your age as an asset rather than a liability, that's going to help you. So, so much, and just don't apologize for who you are. It's so ludicrous for us to think differently of people based on when they happen to have been born. We're all on this thing called life together and we just happen to be at different points on our own personal journeys, and so just cut it out right.
Speaker 1:Try to view it as the asset that it is and the relationships that you make along the way. By the way, this is a huge benefit to people who are older workers that, sadly, younger workers don't have, and my heart breaks for them. Your network that you've built includes your past bosses, your past colleagues, your past clients, your past vendors. You know a ton of people by virtue of just existing longer. Leverage them, almost. I mean, it's a crazy. I can't remember the percentage off the top of my head, but it's a huge percentage of workers that are placed through network connections versus just applying online, right? So leverage your network is going to get you farther faster and you have that benefit. So see it as the asset it is.
Speaker 2:I love that and can't agree with it more. And it applies not just to career environments right and getting higher and promoted, but it also investment right. If you're an entrepreneur and you want to get investment, it's through networks. It's not what you know, but who you know.
Speaker 3:So true.
Speaker 1:It's actually a fair advantage for older people. So I feel you know younger people. I hope they can get pulled in into mentorship and circles and be really intentional about expanding their network, because it's tough work and you just kind of naturally get it as you get older. So absolutely.
Speaker 2:How can members or listeners listen to your podcast but also get connected with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so certainly via LinkedIn, which I put in there and I believe you sent out elsewhere. I'm also on Instagram at Maureen W Clough. You can find me at it gets late earlycom. All the show episodes are there. It's also on every single podcast platform, including YouTube. And yeah, I have a newsletter as well that goes out a couple of times a month. I'm trying to increase that but also not overwhelm. You know it's a tough balance, but, and also I'm busy. So, but all those places are great spots to be and I hope I'm going to be out on the road more. I just recently went to last week went to San Francisco, and AARP sponsored a conversation with their chief information officer about the power of the multi-generational workforce. So I'm hoping to do more things like that on the road because, as you indicated in our opening moments like it's so great to be with people and the community and it was just the most gratifying thing to be around others. So, yeah, hope to do more of that in 2025.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to wwwvestherco and apply today.
