VEST Her Podcast
A podcast exploring the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and sharing stories of women navigating careers and building power collectively.
VEST Her Podcast
Redefining Womanhood: Embracing Multiple Identities and Overcoming Stereotypes
In this episode, we're joined by Dr. Vanessa Scaringi, a licensed psychologist and co-owner of CALM Counseling in Austin, TX. Dr. Scaringi recently authored an insightful article in TIME magazine examining the psychological effects of modern identity trends like the "soft girl" and "tradwife" movements, which are gaining popularity among Gen-Z women.
Together, we'll dive into the psychological implications of these trends, including the "childless cat lady" stereotype and the polarization of women’s roles. We'll discuss how these labels shape our identities, influence societal expectations, and affect mental well-being—and explore strategies for challenging and redefining these narratives.
Ready to rethink how society labels modern women? Join us as we explore the multifaceted identities of women today and the psychological toll of labels like 'soft girl,' 'trad wife,' and 'childless cat lady.' With Dr. Vanessa Scaringi, a licensed psychologist, we uncover how these stereotypes shape societal expectations and contribute to rising mental health issues among Gen Z women. We'll discuss the fear and challenges of embracing multiple identities in a politically polarized world, and why community support is crucial for women redefining their roles.
Curious about the societal judgments women face when they don't fit neatly into one box? We tackle the complexities women encounter in balancing diverse roles, like being a businesswoman and a traditional wife or mother. Using a recent article criticizing a successful woman for her traditional lifestyle as a starting point, we delve into how societal pressures can be both hurtful and limiting.
About our Guest
Dr. Vanessa Scaringi is a licensed psychologist in Austin, TX. Vanessa co-owns a group therapy practice called CALM counseling. Vanessa has dedicated much of her career to working in the eating disorder field, currently she offers supervision and consultation to clinicians hoping to specialize in eating disorders. Additionally, she enjoys writing and presenting on topics related to women's health and the therapy field more generally.
Vanessa recently authored a compelling article in TIME discussing the psychological impacts of modern identity trends, such as the "soft girl" and "tradwife" movements. These trends, particularly popular among Gen-Z women, reflect a shift from the "Girlboss" era to more rigid definitions of femininity. Connect with Vanessa on LinkedIn.
Show Notes
A Side of Freud Newsletter, social commentary and critiques filtered through the lens of a psychologist. By Dr. Vanessa Scaringi.
Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell
There Are Moms Way Worse Than You: Irrefutable Proof That You Are Indeed a Fantastic Parent by Glenn Boozan
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and founding member of Vest, an organization connecting women across industries, regions and career levels so that together we can expedite the pipeline of more women in positions of power and influence. Welcome to another episode of the Vestor podcast, where we explore the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and share stories of women building power collectively.
Speaker 2:You know, culturally we're sort of in a position to be at odds with one another, which not always, but I think that there's this tendency for men to be able to have more identities and be more sort of like, you know, yeah, men work and have kids, like that doesn't mean that their dad identity is now and they're, you know, switching their hat off. One thing I talk about in therapy a lot with clients is we all have everything within us, you know, and so when we have a part of our identity that's more, um, maybe I do like to be at home with my kids and you know, how can we work towards embracing those parts of ourselves versus being rejecting or judging?
Speaker 3:I identify right now as a trad wife because I don't have a job and I'm at home like cooking for my husband, but then also I am a childless cat lady because I don't have kids, I have cats. I'm like incredibly liberal but I think there's like this politicalization of the movements and I'm just curious about like the thoughts of the, you know, far right embracing trad wives, or the left embracing the single, you know, childless cat lady, and like what that does and how that I think is controlling the narrative a little bit and not allowing us to actually embrace everything and whatever role you want to be be.
Speaker 4:How could we as a community one, just get loud and also like support our peers about really owning multiple identities? I feel like society and media and politics in a lot of ways wants to like take from us as women.
Speaker 1:In this episode, we're joined by Dr Vanessa Scaringi, a licensed psychologist and co-owner of Calm Counseling in Austin, texas. Dr Scaringi recently authored an insightful article in Time Magazine examining the psychological effects of modern identity trends like the soft girl and trad white movements. Together we'll dive into the psychological implication of these trends, including the childless cat lady stereotype and the polarization of women's roles. We'll discuss how these labels shape our identities, influence societal expectations and affect our mental well-being, all while also exploring strategies for challenging and redefining these narratives. For our guests' full bios and show notes, go to wwwvestherco forward slash podcast.
Speaker 1:If you enjoy the episode, share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. This episode is brought to you by Vesther Ventures, a peer network of professional women and investment fund for women-led companies in the care economy and future of work. To learn more, go to wwwvestherco. This episode was part of a more intimate coaching session with Vest members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. How are modern identity trends like the soft girl, the trad wife, cat lady movements shaping women's mental health and self-perception?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting. So I actually came across the soft girl trend. I think it was in a glamor magazine article, maybe the year prior, and I had no, I'm not on TikTok, I'm not really on a lot of social media so I didn't know what this was, and when I read the piece I was just sort of dumbfounded, like wait a minute, it's 2023. At that point, what's happening here? I was a women's studies major and I'm old, and so that was in 2002, 2003, you know, and I felt like at that point the tides were turning and women were becoming more rooted in, you know, empowering themselves and, um, feeling like they could have high achieving jobs and make a lot of money, and so to see this like trend picking up and gaining steam was really terrifying. Um, so I'm derailing from your actual question, but in terms of how it's shaping women, I just I think I got concerned like wanting to understand how it is shaping women.
Speaker 2:In my therapy practice I do see a lot of the Gen Z folks leaning on some of those, I guess, the mentality of sort of a soft girl, not necessarily embracing that culture completely, but just um, having a hard time. You know there's a rise in I work in eating disorders. There's a rise in eating disorders. There's a rise in depression and suicidality and all these, um, in that generation specifically, and I I was thinking about, is there a link between these two things? Like, is there some kind of um pressure I'm not seeing in women to stay at home, or I don't even just mean not work, but just not push themselves and sort of not?
Speaker 2:I think there's all this debate about young workers, so anyway, but that's what led me to thinking more about these things and as far as, how is it shaping women? I think there's a mental health implication. I think I, what I see is that that's happening. Um, I think young women might feel a little fearful of pushing themselves or achieving certain things when there's sort of this whatever cat cult like you know that comment that was made um, there's fear. There's a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation about what it means to be able to push yourself nowadays and get out of your comfort zone.
Speaker 1:And also I think it has to do a lot with like your atmosphere right.
Speaker 1:Like a lot of our best members are actually in the middle of the country where you know, the environment in which you operate, the environment in which you live, can actually dictate a lot of how you show up at work.
Speaker 1:And you know I often before some of the members joined, leslie and I were joking about some of my social media presence, which is all over the place, you know.
Speaker 1:But I get asked all the time, or told all the time that you know, given backhanded compliments by people saying, well, you know, if I, if I acted like you or if I showed up like you on social media, I wouldn't be able to do anything Right, because I'm very politically engaged, we would never tell men that I have friends, ceos, cfos, partners that are always engaging in politics, always talking about why they support one thing over the other. Yeah, we just see that as normal, but when women do it, it's like, oh, my gosh. Now I do tend to be a little bit on the I say whatever it's on my mind, but I just, unfortunately, I still see how this perception of how you know, how we impose as a society, things on women that make them think, oh, I should act like this or I should fit more on this, based on what is most acceptable in your environment or in the culture that you're currently residing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's a lot of fear involved of what we'll have. What will the repercussions be if I put myself out there? It's very scary For sure.
Speaker 1:For sure. In your Time article you discuss how these identity trends can create both comfort and constraint for women. Can you elaborate on the psychological impact of embracing these identities and how you know they can empower but also limit women in some sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was thinking about in that piece the comfort part. I think is more sort of it's a bottlenecking experience where it might provide some instant comfort, where there's avoidance. I think in the piece I talked about like treat culture and sort of ignoring some of the other you know bigger things that we might have on our plates, and I don't know if people are familiar with treat culture. There's nothing wrong with it. But it's like the idea of oh, I've got a hard day, so I'm going to like treat myself to a hard day, so I'm going to like treat myself to, you know whatever, a coffee or I do that spend $8 on a latte today, like these things are expensive and they feel really good and warm and yummy in the moment, but over time what are we avoiding if we're not really tackling the bigger, the bigger picture? And then there's this other side, part of like financially as women, what are we? How are we positioning ourselves if we're ignoring how expensive things have gotten or if, you know, we sort of hide behind some of these other avoidance strategies? So I think in that regard there's some comfort in the short term, but ultimately I think embracing some of these trends can be really damaging in the longterm.
Speaker 2:For you know how can you sustain yourself if you're avoiding it? You know how, how, what happens if you're hiding behind some kind of identity. Or I think there was a piece on the stay at home, stay at home girlfriend trend and I think it was in the Washington street journal. I think so, but just the financial impact of like. You know, I don't know how many stay at home girlfriends there really are, but there are a lot of influencers on social media that portray themselves that way, who also, ironically, make a lot of money from being on influencers on social media. But you know, if you're dependent on other people for your income and not you know working to provide for yourself, how are you hurting yourself ultimately in the long run?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm actually I'm currently reading a book Cultish, I'm not. Has anybody read that book? You know, creating community, right, like sometimes we identify with a trend or something because we desperately crave community. And you know, and I feel that way, here I am bringing my bias, but you know, I feel like this cat lady movements. I'm like hell yeah, I'm not in my life and I'm actually not necessarily a cat person, but now I'm like I identify as a childless cat lady. You don't even know how to be a beautiful girl, but I think it's more like I wanted a community, right, like, hey, unapologetic women who are saying what they need to say, for whatever reason, and so I feel like sometimes, to your point, the comfort is to create community, to find some sense of belonging. I think it's super important as well. But long term, like I also have to remind myself hey, you also need to talk to women who disagree with you and understand why.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the trad wife. I did not know anything about this until Courtney and Jay and Gabby brought this to me, and so is everybody familiar. Raise your hand if you've read a little bit or saw the TikToks or the. I was like completely clueless.
Speaker 1:But this is actually a ballerina based on one creator that's a ballerina farm, I believe very successful, has created a very successful brand, decided to live more. So the Trad Wife is traditional, like I literally had to look it up because I was yeah, so traditional wives, but meaning you know, I'm going to live in a farm, I'm going to, you know, race. I think they have eight children. I can't remember how many children.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they've lost count too.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, right, uh, but they, they live off of the farm, but then they also create content and then now they sell items and they've like made millions and they have she, they have she has like eight million people or something following her, um, her dad or I think it's her dad or his dad also owned or owns jet, so there's also a lot of money that they've had.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for, if you haven't been following this, this is again somebody that very successful and has kind of made a career off of being this trend, this identity. But recently there was an article I forget you guys are going to have to help me, gabby and Courtney here but there was an article that kind of was very judgmental of her choices. So, courtney, you want to elaborate on that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, she had a I don't know if it was a contributor or an editor from the Times come out to their farm to do a piece on she and her family.
Speaker 4:She thought the conversation went really well and then, of course, the piece aired and exploded and really like pinpointed a singular identity of her life, um, which was the much more traditional way of living versus like speaking wholly about like what they've created and they are.
Speaker 4:She is very much like a businesswoman and um, so just kind of created this like really difficult narrative that she felt wasn't fully encompassing and didn't at all expect that the conversation was going to end up and air in that way, and so it felt really burned by that, which I think leads to an interesting point. Like we as women, a lot of times maybe we identify as more like traditional wives or moms and families, but it doesn't mean that we can't be and do these other things and own that too. And I think society I want to say it was a woman that wrote that article, gabby, I'm not sure, but even like sometimes women to women can like try to put each other in a single box, which is just so dangerous. So I actually have followed Valerie in a farm for a long time and I really enjoy her as a creator and I think it's amazing what she and her family have built and find a lot of admiration for her. But this article just in recent days and conversation is really blown up in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know that that's where I was going with my point. It's like so in one way you have the trad wife and then in another one, you know you have the nominee for vice president. You know calling women who choose some, you know whether they choose or whatever, for whatever reason, they don't have children. You know. Because they don't have children, they can't be productive members of society and they're not contributing to society and therefore they shouldn't vote and all of this stuff and the child cap lady movement kind of takes form. So my question is how can we as women you know what are the implications of us as women attaching ourselves so much to one or the other, and then how we as women need to be more supportive and understanding and not be not lashed out right at the other just for choosing a different lifestyle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think you're also talking about something just more generally, even just how hard it is to have discourse and to sit with people who disagree. But, yes, as women, I think there's an added component. I remember, back in my college years I think, there was a book called the Mommy Wars and it was about stay-at-home moms versus working moms. And, um, you know, culturally we're sort of put in a position to um be at odds with one another, which not always, but I think that there's this um tendency for men to be able to have more identities and be more sort of like you know, yeah, men, I'm using air quotes, but y'all can see me. But men work and have kids. Like that doesn't mean that their dad identity is now and they're, you know, switching their hat off. And I think that for women, there's probably some fear base, like I imagine that woman going out to ballerina farms and interviewing, feeling very fearful of like what is this going to mean if people like this one, the Ballot Arena Farms brand, like was it, is it going to take us back? Like I don't think there's. I think there's a lot of fear potentially.
Speaker 2:And I also think that one thing I talk about in therapy a lot with clients is we all have everything within us, you know, and so when we have a part of our identity that's more um, maybe I do like to be at home with my kids and you know how can we work towards embracing those parts of ourselves, versus being rejecting or judging or um, and I think if we could extend that sort of grace to others, we could understand why. You know, maybe there's a good reason. Someone's doing what they're doing. I think with the Tradwife brand or sort of trend, it's so provocative and it's so like it's also so clearly they're making money from this, and so what they're promoting is also like, um, obviously not what they necessarily do or believe.
Speaker 2:Like I actually don't know much about the ballerina firms room, but I was thinking about another one, um, and I wish that they would just, if they could just say openly like I make a lot of money from this, that might disarm people so that they could be more curious. Um, but I think there's this like you know, in the influencer world, we want to believe someone is just living their whole life in the way that they're telling us, but the reality is, I'm sure that woman's going to business meetings. I'm sure she's up to date on what new products they're launching or whatever, and if we could know more it would actually be more helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, and I think you nailed it right. It's like even just having the conversation. That's why this session was so important for us to have it, because I really do think that we are at a crucial moment where, you know, regardless of how you feel about certain issues, women's rights are being are at stake, right, we actually have less rights that we did just a few years ago that our mother grandmothers fought so hard for. And I always say to people that are like you know, I mean, I think we're all pro life. I mean who's who's anti, you know?
Speaker 1:But I always say to my friends who are, you know, uncomfortable with even saying the word abortion, it's like, listen, it's not about taking that right away from you If you don't want to have one, or if you, you know, you can believe whatever religious belief you want to believe, but we can't impose it on other people, right, and we have to protect other people.
Speaker 1:And then also, we're talking about privacy, all of these things, but, but for me, I always take it very intentionally to say, hey, it's okay, I'm this way, I love working, I think I'm a better mom when I'm working, and I think my girls will attest to that, and you know, and but. But I also respect women that choose to stay at home for whatever reason, right. And so how do we create more conversations about being supportive and understanding of different lived experiences, of different you know women with different backgrounds, just because my experience may be completely different than somebody else's here in the room? And we need to have empathy in the room, in the safe room, to have those conversations so that we can be even more supportive, particularly, like I said, in times like today when our rights and women's contribution are being diminished at the national level.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's always the concern that I have If women are at odds with one another, then we're not fighting for things that are really important, you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right. We're over here discussing the trad wife and chalice when in reality we should be talking about you know.
Speaker 2:I mean it's all very interesting.
Speaker 3:but yeah, I mean it's very interesting but yeah, yeah, hi, I'm Leah, excuse me.
Speaker 3:I think that everyone should be whatever they want and I don't care.
Speaker 3:I identify right now as a trad wife because I don't have a job and I'm at home like cooking for my husband, but then also I am a childless cat lady because I don't have kids, I have cats. I'm like incredibly liberal, but I think there's like this politicalization of the movements and I'm just curious about like the thoughts of the, you know far right, embracing trad wives, or the left embracing the single, you know, childless cat lady and like what that does and how that, I think, is controlling the narrative a little bit and not allowing us to actually embrace everything and whatever role you want to be. And I actually think this like also plays into like this very binary, you know, view of life, especially maybe on the, where you just you have to be one thing that gets, and that, to me, gets in the way of like policy when you're talking about, you know, gay rights or trans kids or abortion or whatever. And I'm curious to know about the thoughts that everybody has about kind of how we've taken this and made everything political.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also how other people are defining what we should be, and you're either here or here as opposed to us, right? That's a great question. What do you think, Vanessa wives?
Speaker 2:being for men. I think that men are sort of perpetuating, I think, the I forget what school it was, but some speech. Someone came out and talked about how women should be a certain whatever. Yeah, ascribing roles to women, and yeah, I think men are perpetuating a lot of the rhetoric around that. I also think that you know everything being binary, everything being like you're here, you're against me if you believe one thing just there's no progress that comes from that.
Speaker 2:And, unfortunately, I do think that with social media, there's a lot of that's just what gets clicks and there's a lot of that's just what gets clicks and there's a lot of incentive to sort of stay in those very like dichotomized lanes. And I don't know if it actually like as we're sitting here talking, it sounds like we're all sort of probably agreeing that like we can agree to disagree. There's space for nuance, but when you translate any of that online, it's just like there's attacking. There's there is no space for nuance on online, which is really scary, and that's where so many people get their messaging. That's where so many. That's just where people live. I think there was a study about how many hours we spend online a day and it's something like six hours, so if that's where you're spending all your days, yeah, you sort of think of the world in these ways and it's not reality.
Speaker 1:So that actually leads to my next question perfectly how can we, given everything we just talked about, how can women maintain a strong sense of identity while facing all of these societal pressures, whether you're in social media or not? And how do we combat conforming to roles that are defined by somebody else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's like a lifelong of therapy right there. But I think, ultimately, surrounding yourself with other women who are uplifting and are curious, rather than, you know, combative or prescriptive, and I also think, really trying to internalize, like I can be anything in any moment, like maybe this is a phase of my life where I'm doing more of X or less of Y, but it doesn't have to define me, and knowing that that's okay and that I mean I think it's so much easier said than done. I think the surrounding yourself with other women helps you sort of helps inoculate yourself to the rhetoric that we can all be exposed to. But I have friends who are, you know, stay at home moms. I have friends who work. I have friends who are in between, like being able to come together and support one another in those journeys and know that none of that is a reflection on me, like what they're deciding to do with their lives is like that doesn't necessarily affect me, unless they're telling me I'm wrong. But I don't have a lot of friends that do that.
Speaker 1:You talked about the need for therapy, right, and I know that, and we haven't in a way, de-thismatize it, but not have we really like. How many women are you actually seeing that are reaching out for therapy support, for professional support, and how can they find it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so another area I'm quite biased in is finding good therapy.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think right now there's also we're sort of inundated with I might get a little on my soapbox, but a lot of the VC backed therapy worlds, which is like BetterHelp.
Speaker 2:I mean you can't listen to a podcast without being exposed to a commercial for BetterHelp. Inherently wrong with a lot of what better help does. But, um, I think there's the tendency for some of those platforms to really reinforce the idea that there's some that we should be better, that we need to, like, have a problem and recover from it. Um, and, and some of that's just reflected in, like they, they give a lot of questionnaires about your progress and your therapy and things like that, which none of that's inherently wrong, but when we're told that we need we have problems that we need to fix, versus, like, being really curious in a long-term kind of capacity, um, that's where I do long-term therapy. I do a lot of group therapy and I think real healing comes from that kind of experience. Um, so I, as far as, like, I think women might be more. I mean, women are more likely to reach out for therapy. Um, it's a little less of a stigma still heavily there, probably dependent on where you live. I'm in Austin, very liberal I you can spit and hit a therapist here, um, so I know it's very like a normalized experience here. But gosh, you go do two hours and I know it's not Um. So, yeah, I think, uh, approaching if you are going to go to therapy with, like how can I just use this time to be curious about myself? And you know, group therapy I'm also really biased about. I think that's where it's just transformative Um, I think a lot of women, especially um, can find themselves like re stretching the limit on in terms of how they um can take in people.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking about what we're talking about with nuance. Um, group therapy is such a place to build that capacity for nuance because you can sit with people from different backgrounds and know that you're all there for the same reason of trying to develop more curiosity, empathy, healing, and that's that can be really uplifting. I think you would ask, like, what about where you can reach out or find things? Yeah, I mean, right now we're sort of inundated with a lot of money being spent on advertising for therapy, and so I would. I would turn to like the mom and pop kinds of therapists in your community, um, if possible. I know there's barriers and accessibility there, but ask about sliding scale, um, things you know being work with someone to maybe try to get that need met in a different way. And it doesn't have to be if their fee is something that they won't budge, and not to deter anyone from better help or anything like that, but just be curious.
Speaker 1:You know, going back to something that you said about letting other people define our identity and imposing that, and that being primarily males doing that. One of my biggest issues with this is and even just this whole conversation is that once again, we're focusing on fixing women Right. What do we need to do, you know, to fix ourselves as if there's something wrong with us, when in reality and to your point earlier, when you say you know, we're so focused on having these conversations, which, in my my argument is we should instead be focusing on what leads women to quit the labor force in general. Right, and a lot of times has to do with workplaces were never designed with us in mind, and you know, sometimes workplaces are so rigid they don't have the flexibility that not just women, but working parents, you know caregivers have to do, and so you know I always I have like a love-hate relationship with the fact that women are launching businesses faster than our male peers Latina, six times faster. But I also know why, right, and it's because the corporate setting doesn't work for us, and so we then have to be creative and figure out how to bring additional revenue to the home. So I want to have those conversations, right, because then that places the responsibility on us as a society and as a community to look at workspaces, right, our workspaces. How can we make them more flexible, more supportive for the workers? Right, not just the owners and employers?
Speaker 1:So I hope that one of the takeaways for the VAS members here is that you know, when we're having these conversations, they're important to have and we need to see, like, how do we keep ourselves accountable, how do we embrace other personalities or other you know identities, if you will?
Speaker 1:But also, how do we take this back to the larger conversation of like, what leads us to behave a certain way or to do certain things? I wish that the whole on the trad wife my bias was. You know, I am concerned sometimes on how much the decision was made by women right To live a traditional life, to be the wife, to have X amount of kids, to do certain things. If it was genuinely hers, then I'm all for it, right, and I hell, let me invest in you and let me invest in your company and whatever. But sometimes I just feel like we were led to those identities, we're led to making some of those decisions. So just want to encourage Vest members to keep that in mind, as you continue like, as we have these conversations and other, to look at the broader picture of how it's affecting us from a societal perspective.
Speaker 5:Does anyone have anyone in their lives that they disagree with on these topics, Like are they fielding comments about their own work or I personally experienced it with my sister, and it is not her choice, so I just feel like an entanglement of, like my stomach just drops and I've seen her become a shell of a person over the last 15 years. I get really emotional talking about it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's tough too, right. That's something that I also in reading and educating myself on. On, again, the ballerina deal it's not her, so let's take the persona or the. It's just you know and I am into cults recently, so not saying that you know anything, it's a cult or anything, but just how the psychology right of what leads you again to to to join certain groups, to, um, identify with certain identities, um, and then you know, especially if it's somebody that you love, like you want to help, you want to say something, but then you know, especially if it's somebody that you love, like you want to help, you want to say something, but then you know that sometimes that just makes it worse. So what do you do? Do we do? Are you just supportive and let you know whoever be, whoever they need to be, or what is our role in that? Or how would you coach us, vanessa? How would you provide therapy to us if we're in that situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's really hard. Thank you so much for sharing I. I think when there's a lack of choice for, you know, especially with something so big and profound as your career and your, this big part of your identity, um, we do. We lose passion, we lose, you know, friends, we lose, start to lose ourselves and, as far as you know, um coaching anyone around this, I was thinking about just how to help someone regain the sense of choice. Um, but it's also really hard. I mean, we're literally talking about a time for women where we're losing our, you know, freedoms and choices. Um, and so just being someone there to talk to without judgment is a huge win, because hopefully there is a time where someone sort of can come out of that and regain some of the feelings of choice or empowerment.
Speaker 2:I think of having young kids. I have two littles and you do feel like you don't. I mean choices just start to go out the window. If I have to pick up one of my kids from school, I have to cancel my clients for the rest of the day. There's just realities and helping people to know that ultimately, there's going to be a time that I'm going to move away from that my kids are going to be older. I'm not going to have to run off and pick them up and helping them tolerate that. Being a year to listen in those moments can be really impactful.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing, Emily. I know that's tough. If there's anything that we can do collectively to support you during this time, even if it's just to listen without judgment, please reach out one on one during the Vest sessions. Whatever we need to do, who else wants to share?
Speaker 8:I wanted to add something really quickly to what Vanessa said, and I think what's important is us advocating for each other when you're in a position of power and talking about it openly, what it could look like. And so, like you know, throughout my career, my husband was in the military and did a ton of deployments and I was raising two kids by myself but working full time minutes. And I was raising two kids by myself but working full time. And when we talk about like childcare and how expensive that is, and then how, like, least flexible your schedule can be, and so when I started in my role now at BBV, the thing I told my board was like I need an extremely flexible schedule because I have no other options. I don't have family that live here. I'm a great fit for this role and I want to do good, but I need these other things. And they were really on board, which was helpful. But that also meant that when I had team members who were struggling with it, we would talk about it and I'd say, okay, here's what I've done and been in your situation, so there's a lot of solutions. So it doesn't always have to look like the black or white, like I have to stay home or I can work, or like there's so much of an opportunity to really think outside the box.
Speaker 8:And I feel like a lot of times we get stuck in this narrative of like, well, if you can't be at work from nine to five or eight to four, whatever that looks like, then you have to be a stay at home. You know, spouse, and that's not really true. So, as employers, I think we really need to do a better job of helping people see alternatives. You know the thing for us. I have a lot of young single parents on my team, and so we implemented full remote summers, and it's because I needed it. My kids are 12 and 16, but I still need it.
Speaker 8:And so Memorial Day to Labor Day, we're 100% remote, and if you need to come into the office, maybe to meet with a client or whatever that looks like, like work it into your schedule, but how? And so I think that's the big opportunity that we have is, as a workplace, showcasing what could be, because a lot of times, when we talk to small businesses and they're like well, this is what it's supposed to look like, I'm like it's supposed to look like that because other people told you that it's your business. Make it look like what works for you and what works for your team so you can hire people. And when we talk to people, they're like I can't hire enough people.
Speaker 1:It's like well, then you're going to have to get creative on what those roles look like and how you ask people to show up, and so I think we have a responsibility to really be blame into the individual or the woman or the person Right, and then it places it on us as a society, as employers, as you know, colleagues, if you're not, you know in our position of power, because the more we learn that, oh shit, we're going through the same stuff. You know, even though I'm in venture and you're a nonprofit and you're over here, we're actually dealing with the same struggles and we just perhaps just need to be more understanding and compassionate towards one another and really try to, like you said at the beginning, vanessa, be curious about learning from each other's experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fighting the system and not each other. Like start there 100%.
Speaker 1:As we are heading into the election, it's hard not to talk about. You know, kind of, how this implicates this discussion on a broader level, on a political level, without you know asking anybody to vote a certain way or to follow a certain thing. It's just listening to how people talk about these issues. That's all I ask, right? It's to listen how people are defining women, listen to how people are putting people on different boxes. What resonates and what will lead us to your point, vanessa, to then fix systems rather than each other or ourselves. Because I think that this conversation is so timely, as everything that's evolving on the political spectrum and it can be very hateful and it's actually hurting the way we get along with our neighbors is causing more harms in our communities, is causing more division. You know it might seem like something that's societal, but it's actually being implemented in policies, right, that are actually hurting women at work. Women, if you're an entrepreneur, your ability to access capital, you know your ability to build companies and be empowered to do that if you want to. It's more than just a cultural shift. It's more than just a trend.
Speaker 1:It's something that we need to just continue to have conversations on and not be shy about it, right? Not say, well, it's not politically correct to do so. Or well, even if the fear is there, right, even if the fear is there, we have to lean in towards it. It's OK to feel uncomfortable. It's actually part of feeling uncomfortable is because we're growing it. It's okay to feel uncomfortable. It's actually part of feeling uncomfortable is because we're growing, and one of my biggest concerns is that, as a society, we've gotten away from feeling that discomfort, like we want to just feel okay and we want to be in our own bubble and we want to build community just with people that think like us. So I just challenge ourselves to continue to have these conversations, vanessa, in talking about this how can this community support one another when we're navigating identity challenges?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think we're reiterating some of the getting curious, you know, just being able to hold on to nuance and understand, you know, develop empathy, understand where someone's coming from, so that you can ultimately uplift one another. And I think if you really understand where someone's coming from, there's less judgment, um, there's the desire to really um, walk in their shoes and help them, versus, like, judge or cast criticism, or I think really obviously a group of women coming together here, everyone's sort of invested in being part of a community and uplifting one another. So that's already you're doing the work right there. But if you can just deepen that curiosity with one another, I think that's huge.
Speaker 1:But if you can just deepen that curiosity with one another. I think that's huge. I have to ask this because one of the things that I have noticed is, if we're talking about these identities and these trends, right, when we're talking about the soft girl and trad wife, it's hard not to notice the lack of diversity in women of color being represented. Women of color being represented, it seems to be primarily white women that are kind of leading this and and and doing this. Is that just me that just saw that, Because this is like I'm coming in late to this. Is that something you've seen? Is that something that you've seen in practice?
Speaker 2:I mean I, to be honest, I don't see a lot of like soft girl like. Given that I'm not on social media, I don't necessarily take in a lot of that information. I think the origins of soft girl were rooted in something that was women of color initially, but I think it was sort of hijacked. The soft girl stuff is like a. It's really based in an aesthetic, um of like makeup, looking a certain way and wanting, you know, this quiet luxury and all these sort of Gen Z, um types of styles, um and I. But I do think at the end of the day there's definitely a bias and white women probably um more present in that world, um, or at least what are what white women probably um more present in that world, um, or at least what are what white women being covered more.
Speaker 6:You know there's also that part, the attention given based upon my friendship circle, have seen it true that, um, women of color are being hired into those roles and are not being supported sufficiently in those roles, kind of being the first and leave them because it's not a sustainable environment, and so I think that there's a real crisis there of making sure that we create spaces that will sustain women of color in leadership roles so that they're not, you know they're not the first and the last A hundred percent, shannon, and they don't have this extra income, but that's truly just like who they are, maybe what they're choosing to embody by choice, or maybe they're being led there, we don't know.
Speaker 4:But how could we, as a community one, just get loud and also like, support our peers and women about really owning kind of the and and celebrating multiple identities beyond kind of getting curious, but that's something I feel like the society and media and politics in a lot of ways wants to like take from us as women is being able to like, own and be loud about like, owning the power of and.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure. Well, I I think you know strict gender roles are damaging to everyone. They're damaging to men too, and I think women are historically not encouraged to get mad. But I think this is a moment to get really mad and to talk openly about the anger of like. Please don't pigeonhole me, or, you know, if someone's a stay at home parent, like that doesn't only define me. It doesn't mean anything. Being able to really advocate for oneself in whatever they're deciding and know that if it's because they're wanting to do that, then you know being able to own that and it doesn't have to be rigid.
Speaker 1:That's so powerful. I love that. I love how you stated that question, courtney, and it's actually for me. It's like you know, we want to be intentional of also recruiting more women into the network. And how do we recruit more women that you know immediately network. And how do we recruit more women that you know immediately, maybe intentionally or you know unconsciously, put us in a bucket, right?
Speaker 1:Oh that's, they're just a bunch of liberal ladies you know, and I'm like, hey, we're here to support one another, right, um, and we have different. We're not a cult. We have different belief systems, we have different, you know, um, I'm just always thinking about that, like, and I want to put it on to the vast members how can we recruit more members who might have not necessarily the wrong impression, but the idea that maybe this is not a space, a safe space for them, right, because they might not 100% identify with how we stand and how we show up the limited view that they have?
Speaker 3:Erica, it's Leah Courtney, thank you for saying that. So I very much have always identified as someone who does not have children. Like I made a very strong choice when I was like a kid myself that I was not going to do it. It's not for me. I think one of the major issues with all of this is that there's so many assumptions Like that. That's the problem, I think, is that people make assumptions like oh well, maybe you can't have children or you hate children. Like none of those. That's not true. I want to be invited to your kid's birthday party. Like I want to be able to support.
Speaker 3:But, like you know, there I have some friends that just assume that because I've made choices that I've been vocal about, that I don't understand or I don't want to do something, or I don't want to be a part of it. And I think across the board, regardless of which direction you're going, if we could all take a step back and like try to remove some of those assumptions and go in and Erica, you've said this before with curiosity and trying to figure out, like okay, why, why do I feel this way about your decision? Right, and I, I, I think we can all start there and it really is just like putting your assumptions in the trash can and like moving on with your life. And it's a richer life too, because you get to meet so many more people and understand so many more points of views. And I think social media just puts you in this box and you assume so much more because of it, because it's like right there in your face all the time.
Speaker 2:That tends to be the one thing I'm black and white about is social media consumption. It's like less is better.
Speaker 7:Less is best. Yeah, hey, I'm kind of giggling here at all the like cat references, the word words, usage, curiosity and things like that have been popping up and I'm just back here laughing. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, these girls are going to think I'm crazy. I'm back here giggling, but it's just kind of funny because I'm a cat person and like I'm just hearing all these cat little cat things all over the place. But everybody's awesome and I love it when people expand their minds.
Speaker 7:And to me, labeling even yourself which is why I joined this call today, by the way is because of stuff I'm battling within myself, labeling yourself even. I mean, give yourself a break. I've labeled myself to death, you know, because I'm a mom, I'm, you know all these things. I've been a career woman and I'm not. You know you. You kind of pin yourself down into this little box and you just go what? You have no wiggle room for growth. You have no wiggle room for growth and I want to challenge everybody to give everybody humanity and grace and kindness and not pin them down in a box. Because I kind of feel sorry for men right now man, because, like women rock, we are blasting the roofs off of businesses and employers are just like what are we doing? These girls have, like, accelerated our revenue, what you know in one year's time. I mean it's just.
Speaker 7:I think that we as women have a huge opportunity to share what we've been given to other younger women, and that's what I'd like to do, I mean like a mentorship here. I would love to do something like that to encourage, like Emily talking a minute ago. I would love to do something like that to encourage, like Emily talking a minute ago. I feel like I would be really good to talk with her because I think I could could hurt her in a constructive way. But you know, I think y'all are awesome. Thank you for speaking up. Sorry to talk so long.
Speaker 1:Okay, first of all, never apologize at a best session for contributing, first rule of thumb. But thank you so much for sharing, shelly, and thank you for offering to support Emily. Yeah, I think that's why we're here right To like create not just group support and peer support, but one-on-one support. So thank you for that. Well, unfortunately, once again, we've run out of time, so I want to be respectful of everyone's time. But, vanessa, I definitely want people. First of all, we want to keep reading your article, so please keep them going, keep us in touch with us and we're happy to amplify them. But how can best members in anybody listening to the podcast later on get a hold of you and connect with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, email. I don't know if there's a. If you blast out my email Vanessa Scaringi, a PhD at Gmail, so I can write it in the chat and I have a sub stack. So I'm new to the writing world but really enjoying it. And if you subscribe you'll see my articles quickly. It's called A Side of Freud. I love it. I'm in the psychology field.
Speaker 1:You can't tell, stop telling people that you're new to writing because, based on your Times article, it doesn't cover that, so you don't need to say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not apologetically new, just getting really into it now, really energized by it, newly energized by it.
Speaker 1:Any last minute takeaways, Vanessa, for us.
Speaker 2:I think I just I'm so lucky that I got connected with you. I think just continue to do what you're doing. It sounds like growing this network and building on that is huge. Women supporting women is such a big deal and so important, so you're already doing it more of it.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to wwwbestherco and apply today.
