VEST Her Podcast
A podcast exploring the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and sharing stories of women navigating careers and building power collectively.
VEST Her Podcast
Future of Work As It Relates To Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in the Anti-DEI Era
In this episode we talk to Shalynne Jackson, Oklahoma City's Chief Equity Officer, and Mikeale Campbell, Diversity & Inclusion Program Manager at Williams on the topic of Future of Work as it relates to inclusion. We talk about SHRM's decision to remove the word “equity” from DEI due to the anti-DEI movement. If and how companies should evolve DEI efforts. How executives can address the wrongful implication that DEI efforts mean giving preference to unqualified candidates and more.
This episode is brought to you by VEST Her Ventures, a peer network and investment fund for women building the infrastructure needed to unlock women's labor participation, career potential, and lifetime earnings. Learn more at www.VESTHer.co.
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Guest Bios
Shalynne Jackson serves as the City of Oklahoma City's first Chief Equity Officer. Prior to joining the City of OKC, Shalynne supported strategic Inclusion and Diversity initiatives for multiple Fortune 500 companies. She has served on various boards and is currently the Membership Chair for the Oklahoma Human Resources State Council (OKHR); serves on Schnake Turnbo Franks’ I&D Advisory Committee; and is on the board of ReMerge - a comprehensive diversion program. Shalynne is recognized as a 2024 Oklahoma Magazine 40 Under 40 honoree, and in 2023, Shalynne was recognized by 405 Business Magazine as a Notable DEI Leader and one of the Metro's most influential leaders. A graduate of The University of Oklahoma, Shalynne holds a Master of Human Relations degree. Additionally, she is a qualified administrator for the Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI), a cross-cultural assessment of intercultural competence. Most importantly, she is the proud mother of daughter Hollis, 6, and son Liam, 3.
Mikeale Campbell is a proud product of North Tulsa. After graduating from Booker T Washington, he attended the University of Tulsa, majoring in Business and Chinese. Upon graduation, Mikeale moved to Dallas, Texas, to participate in a program called, Teach For America (TFA). Teach For America is a program that takes aspiring leaders and supports them as classroom teachers for a minimum of 2 years. After five years in Texas's classroom and campus support roles, he moved back to the Tulsa area to create and lead TFA Greater Tulsa's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion programs. During his 4 years with the organization Mikeale impacted the knowledge, skills, and mindsets of over 400 educators in the Tulsa area. Mikeale transitioned to the Williams Companies in November of 2020. Since then, he has immediately jumped in to support Williams in becoming a leader in the D&I space within our community. He is heavily involved in the Tulsa community, serving on several boards, including Tulsa Legacy Charter Schools, Pathways Adult Center, and Tulsa Regional Chamber’s 2023 Inclusion Chair. Mikeale prides himself on being an active volunteer in the community, supporting many womxn lead organizations, STEM programs and all things Greenwood. Mikeale says he’s lived a life rooted in a quote he lives by is, "Change
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Hey everyone, this is Gabby Eichenlaub, founding member of Vest. Welcome to another episode of the Vest Her podcast, where we explore the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and share stories of women building the future of more inclusive workspaces. This episode is brought to you by Vest Her Ventures, a peer network and investment fund for women, building the infrastructure needed to unlock women's labor participation, career potential and lifetime earnings. Learn more at wwwbestherco.
Speaker 2:I feel like some people don't even really understand the difference between, like, social justice work and DEI work. And people also don't understand we only sometimes get one time to mess up in this work. And so if somebody went before me and they went in cussing everybody out and telling everybody they're racist and doing all the things in the corporate setting, that makes it 10 times harder for me If I ever even get the job. If that office even stays alive, right, usually after that, like it's repurposed, you don't get another chance.
Speaker 3:Give us a shared working definition of what we mean when we say diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging. We have to have the same conversation because you can have 20 definitions and I can't talk to you about what you have in your head and what I have in my head. That may or may not be aligned, so we have to get on the same page. And the second I have to be very transparent with goals and data. Oftentimes organizations, either through fear or level of risk, aren't transparent with data and aren't always transparent with goals.
Speaker 2:The way you develop your people, that's DEI. The way that you appreciate and recognize your people, that's DEI. This is really about effective leadership.
Speaker 3:When folks get that the work of D&I, particularly in the corporate setting, is around systems, structures and mindsets, I really don't care that. If we call it what we call it, you could drop the title for me tomorrow. And I do leadership development work because I'm in the business of helping leaders broaden their perspectives and learning how to serve and develop their people better.
Speaker 1:In this episode we talked to Shailen Jackson, oklahoma City's Chief Equity Officer, and Mikel Campbell, Diversity and Inclusion Program Manager at Williams, on the topic of future of work as it relates to inclusion. We talk about SHRM's decision to remove the word equity from DEI due to the anti-DEI movement, if and how companies should evolve DEI efforts, how executives can address the wrongful implication that DEI efforts means giving preference to unqualified candidates and more efforts means giving preference to unqualified candidates and more. For our guests' full bio and show notes go to wwwbestherco forward slash podcast. This episode was part of a more intimate coaching session and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. If you enjoy the episode, please share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. Tell us just a little bit more about yourself, maybe what's not in your bio, but also maybe how this whole anti-DEI rhetoric movement is affecting your work currently.
Speaker 2:Kind of a loaded question, right? So I too am from Tulsa. My Kayla and I went to Wicca Tea together, so go Hornets. Obviously Tulsa has a lot of rich history and it's interesting to know that, coming up, I did not hear about a lot of the history y'all hear about today, and so that in itself has really shaped like why do we hide parts of our history, even when it happened, like right up the street, right, I have alopecia.
Speaker 2:I hate Justice Widener Smith that just got on. I have alopecia. I am a daughter of an incarcerated dad most of my life, and then he was taken from us. I'm a mom and I say these things. I'm a Christian. I say these things ones because we often don't talk about this kind of stuff. It's all taboo, you're supposed to hide the most important parts of yourself, but those are the exact things that made me me. But I also say these things just because they did shape how I show up in this space and why I do this work. It's interesting she just got on here.
Speaker 2:But specifically how I got into the work, I'll just say I did used to do the work at One Oak Dollar General and Walmart, and so I say that it is huge going from the private sector to the public sector, but starting at One Oak, you say, how did I get in? And I met Justice one day. She had started like a month or two before me and I said the first time I met her, would you mentor me? And I did not know. That's not how you get a mentor. We always joke. I'm glad that it worked out. I'm glad that it worked out. I just knew that her title had to do with humans and I'm so fortunate that ever since that day I was able to every day wake up and love humans through my work. And so that's really how I got into the work, and I can talk later about how I got into this specific role.
Speaker 3:Similar. It's always connections for folks, and so I like the push because I would like things to share more authentically about myself. I am the oldest of five. My mom had me at 15. I have an ACE score, if you're familiar with ACE, so Adverse Childhood Experiences of 10. And so in many ways I've lived my life as an anomaly in ways that I think perpetuate just, I think, the grit of humans.
Speaker 3:I got into the work mostly because of my time spent in the classroom, and so I am from Tulsa but ultimately taught in Dallas, and my first year there I was teaching and I had a lot of what I would call like really well-intentioned, good-hearted educators that were graduating from the SMUs and TCUs of the world and, if you're familiar with those campuses, very affluent and very white, and so what that meant to me on our campus was I had this crop of like really really well-intentioned, good-hearted white women that thought they could connect with parents and peers by talking about Burberry and kids in the hood think you mean blueberries, like it. Just it wasn't the same language. And so we began to create a lot of what I would call cultural competency work of like here's how you know the area and the environment you're going into. Here's what that means to carry yourself. Here's how you build awareness around those things. And so did that while teaching, and then eventually did my own consulting firm, moved to New Orleans, and then had the privilege of someone saying like, hey, I love what you've built here, I'd love to take it off your hands. And so I had moved to New Orleans, was there for two months, and then got a job request to come back to Tulsa, and I just got married. So my wife and I joke that we got married. We lived together for two months and then moved apart for two years, which was fun in our 20s. I would never do it again, though. Um.
Speaker 3:But then, with that, spent some time at teacher america, really focusing on the knowledge, skills and mindsets, and I named that because I think that's a big part about how I do the work now. To be successful in the classroom, this belief that you have to have is like every student can learn if given the right opportunities, uh, and the right experiences, right. So if that's resources, tutoring, whatever it may be, uh, and that mindset, I was like, oh, for some reason, I don't think that, or I had not always thought about people right, and so that doesn't change when someone turns 18 or 28 or 47 or 62, right, and so I think that's a mindset I carry a lot into the work that I do now, which is this idea that there's plenty of folks that have well intentioned and good hearts that have not been exposed to either accurate truths or other perspectives that's done enough to really navigate the way that they view and see the world, and so that's really the work that I get to do is I talk a lot about that idea of like the perspectives that we hold and how that broadens our awareness of stuff. So the second part of your question I think you had in there, gabby, was just like how has the anti-DNI movement impacted our work?
Speaker 3:Well, it's both good ways, mostly bad ways't care that if we call it what we call it, you could drop the title for me tomorrow, and I do leadership development work because I'm in the business of helping leaders broaden their perspectives and learning how to serve and develop their people better. I don't want to drop the title, but I think at its core that's the work that we do, and so for me that's been the big part of our organizational conversation is I care less about the titles that we'll have to use for an investor or XYZ or for the board, which I've not had any change to push that yet. But, like I've told my boss, I'm very open to that. What I'm not open to is changing what we're doing, and what we're doing I think are the right things, and I'm still pretty firm in that.
Speaker 2:And I totally skipped the second question. I just have to echo everything that Mikel said. A lot of why I skipped it is our work really hasn't changed. But to Mikel's point, it's because of how we do the work and our title actually did change, so I will share that. My title is now the Chief Equity Officer. It was the Chief IND Officer and I'm going to be honest, I never wanted it to be the IND Officer. I never wanted it to be the IND officer. I never wanted it but it was already out and I'll just say a short story.
Speaker 2:When I got there it was the chief diversity and inclusion officer and I was sharing my strategy with the leadership group and our chief of fire and I have to give him a shout out. He's been on board active from day one. He shared with his peers. He said, really, I'm focused on inclusion, not diversity, because my understanding of the work is, if I do inclusion right, my diverse firefighters will stay and they'll come. And I'm like, yeah, they'll come right. And so I said, hey, a lot of people make a statement by putting inclusion first. Do we want to swap it when the whole time, I really always wanted equity but I didn't want to take that and I share that, because I had employees that were upset with me. They were like you, let this white man make this decision. I said he didn't even ask for this, he just said what his focus was going to be. But that told me, right there, I definitely couldn't change the name to what I wanted it to be for relationship purposes, right? So three years in, we've built trust.
Speaker 2:My team came together, we're rebranding, we're about to change, kind of go to 2.0 for us, and we were like maybe now's the time to say we want to shift to just equity. It's shorter, it's cleaner. If you accomplish equity, you accomplish everything else. Well, now the narrative, because it was around the time that the decision came out, around removing it from schools and blah, blah, blah. The narrative is that we were made to do it. So now we're telling employees we weren't made to do it. Equity is actually a more stronger stance. We want this because, like Mikel said, I don't care what you call me, I just don't want a long title, as long as we remain committed to the work. You can call me the chief culture officer. So, anyways, I just wanted to share, just like Mikel. The journey has been great and we really aren't changing anything.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for both of you, for the important work that you're doing in your respective communities and then also just for being vulnerable with us sharing more about yourself. I know there's a couple of members too that have just mentioned that in the chat. Speaking of the change in title, too, I think earlier this week or just this month, the country's top organization for human resources professionals just announced it's distancing itself from the word equity and removing it from DEI. What do you both think about this move, and how do you believe companies and executives should evolve their efforts when it comes to DEI policies, given the current environment?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I don't think policies should or, honestly, will, change. You can't create a systems of equality and fairness without having equity. Like it truly is impossible. Like we always use the basic concept of, if we all I mean even if you're not versed in all history we understand that through history there has been a disbalance and so you can't just at some point say it's equal if you don't actually have tangible proof about how you've done things to make it back balanced or make it back equal and so like.
Speaker 3:While I'm not a fan of taking out the E, I also don't have the E in my title.
Speaker 3:That's a business choice that I've been vocal about and don't have say over, and so that's cool.
Speaker 3:What I do know that we do is that we do equity work, and so I know that we have a pay equity audit that we do each year to make sure, across titles and across gender and across different demographic lines, are people being paid fairly? I know that we look at equitable structures in the sense of are our intentions of? Is everyone actually welcome here, being actually met with our actions that we're doing? Are you considering the differences that folks need and then are you comfortable giving those differences, more things in order to make the balance out. And so I know we're doing the work, and so that would be the push that I would like give to any leader. That I give to my leaders here is like you call it, what you want to call it. We can just call it fairness, because then that makes it easy for folks to say how would I not like fairness? Because fairness is not the same thing as same right. Everyone who has been in a relationship with people or have kids or a caregiver understands the idea that two things can be different and also be fair, based off who the individuals are.
Speaker 2:I will just say so I have to say that I am very involved with SHRM. I'm on the Oklahoma State Council, I hold a position, and so I do have to say that my involvement with SHRM, starting from years ago in Tulsa, has really served me well, right. So I have to honor that. Being a part of the organization has had its pluses and they do do some things well, right? Do I agree with that decision? No, I do not agree with that decision, but I also feel like, oh, shrm, the Society for HR Management, so you'll see people get like credentials. So I have my SHRM senior professional certification.
Speaker 2:Back in the day it was HRI, I think, but that they separated so that that that organization still exists, term, leads a lot of the conversations regarding HR and has really important seats at a lot of tables. They really do. And so am I disappointed in it? I absolutely am, and I think that I I know that I learned really early in this work to not get distracted and so seeing it was like dang, that stinks. Y'all really made that. Y'all really made that decision.
Speaker 2:With a few people, you talk to a few people, but if you focus there, you're missing a lot of the good in the world. You're missing a lot of the organizations that are getting it right and missing opportunities to. For me, I'm just more so focused on the influence that I have on my SHRM friends on the state council. I know that they're still committed. I mean, I've been to rural areas in Oklahoma. We'll be in Arkansas pretty soon to have these conversations as a part of the SHRM chapters, and so when I think about the influence and the way that they continue the conversation, I just think about what I'm able to still touch, because if I start focusing on what I can't touch, I'm just going to be sad for the rest of my life. So the short answer is I'm really disappointed. If I have a conversation, I would say like man, could we talk about it. But at the end of the day, the conversations are still happening and I don't want to give too much attention to the distraction.
Speaker 1:Great reminder for us all with everything going on. I think a lot of the distractions and a lot of the things that are going on are really based on, maybe, assumptions that are made around your roles or what DEI even is. At a recent congressional hearing, representative Crockett highlighted this issue with the anti-DEI rhetoric that the assumption is that diversity efforts means giving preference to unqualified candidates, so thereby equating diversity with lack of qualifications. Have you guys encountered this misconception in your personal or professional experience?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So when I got my job, I you know, they announced it and there was a narrative out there that the city hired a bald black liberal woman to silence the white voice and hire a bunch of black people and then said that I should be replaced and sent to the or not replaced, but sent to transfer to the sewer department. Uh, first of all, stop reading the comments after that. Uh, because I like to say that now I know why beyonce doesn't read the comments really has money to pay people. But, like, I did not read any more comments after that to stay grounded in what was positive, right, um, but I say that to say one, I usually and I learned this my time with One Oak asking questions. So when people think that I'll be like, what's wrong with hiring Black people and who told you that I was here to hire a bunch of Black people? But it's really hard for people to then be now they have to vocalize, right, like they have to vocalize what they're thinking. But also, this work isn't about hiring a bunch of Black people. I don't see anything wrong with hiring qualified Black people, even when people are like so we're really going to go, for example, to an HBCU. Do you really want to compromise quality? What are you saying here? Like what is telling you that going to an HBCU to recruit is going to compromise quality?
Speaker 2:And when we ask questions, typically people at least have to swallow their words. I'm not saying that they change their mind, but I don't even tend to argue. I'm just like asking questions on can you tell me, can you tell me, why you feel that way? The last thing I'll say, and I'll hand over to Mikel, is again learning to focus on the relationships I can build to then help people open their hearts, because when people are willing to sit and have the conversations about what we're trying to accomplish, it is really hard not to get on board. It's really hard not to get on board to say this is about access. This is about really, you know, looking at our systems to make sure that they work for everybody. This is not and I'll say it, this is not a replacement strategy for white men. The white man that deserves the job than the white man he's being the role Right. But this is about giving other people access and opportunity to achieve things that white men tend to achieve. And, when I can, have those conversations.
Speaker 3:We're actually pretty successful in even getting white men on board, just letting them know this isn't about replacing you, yeah, I think. Yeah, the replacement fear exists truly outside of D&I. Right, there's throughout American history and European history that that slogan or phrase has been used to do that for a number of folks, right, and I think, to an extent, there's a real level of like insecurity within the masculinity because, while it's not always men, it is typically men, and I think there's a part of that position in society that, when you really reckon with history, you truly have to question, like was it that Albert Einstein was the most brilliant man of all time, or was it that his sister, who had just as high of an IQ, didn't have access to training and didn't have access to investors and didn't have access to all these things? And thus what we believe is truly a consequence of who we chose to listen to, right, and so I think that's a big part of the misconceptions I talk a lot about. We used a phrase. I didn't love the phrase, but my organization loved the phrase.
Speaker 3:When I started here with all of our recruitment stuff, I was like we're not, we're widening the gate, not lowering the bar. I hated the second section of not lowering the bar because it added the assumption, because so many people were assuming that we were lowering the bar, assuming that we were lowering the bar, so we had it as like a phrase and a slogan that really helped with a lot of folks. But for me, like that is the piece, like I am truly just trying to make sure that what we're doing is widening the gate right, we are making sure and I really try to lean into some of the more masculine tropes that folks have around competition of just like, yeah, if you want to be the best, you beat the best. And I don't think that y'all have really realized through history, when you keep half of the population out of the workforce, you weren't competing with the best, you were competing with the best of the rest. Right, and that idea that, like women can be and are the right, successful and brilliant and smart, and that people of color have skills that view the world differently, is a big thing.
Speaker 3:I mean, shay, to your HBCU example, like I often have to spend time educating folks around, oh, like you just assume that, like Princeton and Yale and Harvard are just the best schools and not the idea that, well, there's plenty of and they're great schools, and, for a black person in the US, plenty of those campuses never allowed black people in by the time they did. The experience people had there wasn't just the education. So for many brilliant black people they're like. This is the only time I could ever go to any environment where I could be in the majority and see a range of diversity within Black people that I will truly probably not experience again outside of these four years. That's why they're there. So, yes, there's plenty of talent there, right. But the rationale that you may have as to why someone would go there is because it's a less good school, right. So it's a lot of like building on. What are the mindsets underneath that that you have?
Speaker 1:Mikel, you talked a little bit about just some other misconceptions that there are the replacement theory, lowering the bar, Shailen, I'd love to hear if you have any other misconceptions that you'd like to get in front of now.
Speaker 2:I mean, so I have a whole presentation. It's called Include and Reimagine, talking about what it's not versus what it truly is, because there's a long list of stuff, right, like this isn't about you or me, this is about you and me. This really isn't about the golden rule, it's really about the platinum rule. But I cannot, and I definitely love that. It's not about reverse discrimination, it's about relationships. It's not about reverse discrimination, it's about relationships For me. I hate the term reverse discrimination because we all know what reverse discrimination meant. Like we all just pictured the same kind of human, not to say reverse discrimination, but kind of to Mikel's point about the statement he didn't like, sometimes you have to say it, so then you can preference with. I don't even like this statement, right, but this is not about reverse discrimination, it's about relationships, and I can't accomplish the platinum rule if I don't have a relationship with you, right? I also just like to remind people like this isn't about religious rhetoric or like political correctness. This is really about respect, and most of our religions say that we are grounded in respect, right, and so, like I will say that, as a Christian, I love to remind people that, like one, if Jesus, my Jesus, I want to be really clear. Not everyone on this call is Christian, I'm sure. But I like to talk to the Christians to say if Jesus was walking this earth, we'd probably be real mad at him because he would go to places that we won't go. He would talk to people we won't talk to, like, what Bible are we reading from people? And hopefully you know we can figure out this Bible stuff in the school, because even as a Christian I will just say there's Christians in the church. I don't want preaching on the Bible, I don't want to share, I don't want to talk about the Bible. Not every teacher does that, right. But I just say that to say like this isn't about politics, it's about respect and there's always a way to find a common ground and a way to respect someone.
Speaker 2:I like to give the example around pronouns. Okay, you don't want to call someone their pronouns. Call them their name. No, you can never go wrong calling somebody their name right. But we usually are so grounded and just committed to disrespect they were like no way, I'm not doing it. Have you ever went wrong calling someone their name? As long as you're pronouncing it correctly and you're committed to getting it right? Um, call them their name, like I. So I like to have conversations with people, just reminding them like, don't just be so committed to disrespect. That. That's what you stay grounded in, um, because at the end of the day, this is about seeing people.
Speaker 2:This is really about effective leadership. Who on your team does not want you to say their name right, right, um? Who on your team does not want you to say their name right, right? Who on your team does not want you to ask where do you want to go in life and how can I help you accomplish that? And, as good leaders, again, call it what you want. As good leaders, those are the questions that we're asking. What community partnership doesn't want you to come and say how can I help serve you right? And so when we can get like focused on what it is that we're trying to accomplish and stay out of the naming and all of that stuff, we could really help change the trajectory of like our country and really our world.
Speaker 3:I mean, Gabby, I'll, I'll, I'll add to that. It's, I think, one big piece that I've had to really like sit with in the in the world of corporate is, like there is a lot of. I think the largest misconception is that it's about, like, a lot of actions and while there's a lot of actions that may come through it, a lot of D&I is about awareness and building your awareness right. Like I. We use the example now, because this is kind of our next big evolution is like.
Speaker 3:The idea that I have a number of leaders that have never thought about the way that menopause impacts women in the workplace is wild to me. So many of our employees especially if we think just age correlations, grind and work hard 20s, 30s and then in their 40s are in these positions in leadership and XYZ, and I've interviewed folks and said how have you navigated those conversations when it's like, yeah, I have brain fog on a Tuesday at 3 pm? That doesn't mean that my brain's not working, but like this is a symptom that I'm now dealing with. If my manager was aware of this, how much easier would the world be to navigate instead of having to do things where I'm hiding stuff or having to move things right, Like the idea that I'm having to deal with all of this in the background while I needed to show up, and that's such a differing experience, based off demographics, for so many people Like, or it's like once.
Speaker 3:You know that, though, I would never want my employee to do that and most leaders wouldn't but if we don't focus on educating them because they haven't been educated, then those types of actions and culture is going to persist, and so I think for me, like, the misconception is that it's always action. I'm like no, it's a lot of awareness.
Speaker 1:A Vest member asked what about performative efforts? It seems as if many corporations only show support to other communities when it's comfortable or trendy, but the minute it gets uncomfortable they back away. This is how our guests responded.
Speaker 2:I think that a lot of the performative part, though, is that and this is where, again, people may throw tomatoes at me but I don't even think us as D&I practitioners are really getting together to say what is it that we're trying to accomplish? And so we're not even all doing DEI the same, and the same is relative right, like even with Williams and One Oak being across the street from each other, they don't need to look the same because they're different organizations. So I'm not saying like it's a cookie cutter situation, but like what we're trying to accomplish. I'll give you an example. You know, I feel like some people don't even really understand the difference between, like, social justice work and DEI work, and so some people they take the social justice approach, no-transcript corporate setting. That makes it 10 times harder for me. Like 10 times harder for me if I ever even get the job, if that office even stays alive, right, usually after that, like it's repurposed, you don't get another chance. So I'm saying that to say like I think a lot of the performative stuff a lot of it not all of it is around. People don't know what it is that we're trying to accomplish. They're not having conversations like Markel and I to say let's look at our systems, our policies, call it what you want, but do they even still work? A lot of the policies are from 50 years ago. They don't work for none of us Right. Why is this thing a thing, right? And so that's where I see a lot of the performative part.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I'll say is like I think a lot of the performative stuff is like around fear and people just not having the right conversation, but also sometimes the opposite people doing the work and don't know how to. Even like they're not even talking to their DNI team. If that makes sense, like, what I'm grateful for at the city is all of our leaders are part of this conversation. A lot of it is because of how we set up our equity council and they're understanding that the way you develop your people, that's DEI. The way that you appreciate and recognize your people, that's DEI. Like, let's look at our engagement survey and we can connect every single thing on this engagement survey to DEI.
Speaker 2:And once they learned that, they realized, huh, this really is a part of my philosophy, this really is the kind of leader that I want, to be right, and these are the things that I can do. And now let's tell our story well. A lot of times people, companies don't tell their stories well. One thing again I learned at One Oak was around the importance of having a really good relationship with your communications team so that we are adequately telling our story around how it is that we're accomplishing DEI, beyond not saying instead of, but beyond showing up for the parades, beyond having the cultural observance Again, those are important, but what's the other stuff we're doing and how are we connecting it to DEI so people see that and understand that? If that makes sense, mikel, I don't know if you have anything tied to that.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I think it's like the first thing I had to do when I got to Williams was one give us a shared working definition of what we mean when we say diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging. We have to have the same conversation, because you can have 20 definitions and I can't talk to you about what you have in your head and what I have in my head. That may or may not be aligned, so we have to get on the same page. And the second I have to be very transparent with goals and data. So it's really much more difficult for someone to say I feel like this is a replacement strategy when I can show you that in 2023, 75% of our new hires were white men. Right, it doesn't mean that it's 76% as it was the year before, but like it's not what you say, it is right and you can feel that way, but oftentimes organizations, either through fear or level of risk, aren't transparent with data and aren't always transparent with goals, and so that's been like that's always my push. I think that's been. The thing that I'm most proud about my work here over the past few years is how much more transparent with everything we've become, that's then allowed folks to have kind of more data. I think justice to your question here, like that's been.
Speaker 3:Like my big thing is I don't know what it means to woke wash, and so I can ask, like let's go, let's talk about what that means, because what I want to do is make sure that all employees have time to take off when they have a child. I care that if your parent is battling alzheimer's, that as a caregiver, you're able to do that and navigate your work at the same time. Right? These are not. These are things that, as a person, we should all want and we all benefit from.
Speaker 3:However, when you use these terms whether it's woke or DEI or whatever then we're not having the conversation about what we're doing. And so I'm always that person who's like I'm going to have the conversation and typically, because they're asked in a comment section if I'm doing like a presentation or from the audience it's not a let's connect offline I'm going to ask that person to like let's go back here in this moment, because what you may think woke is maybe what someone else is thinking, and I want you to have to say that and I'm not going to. I'm not going to. You know, troll, you be mean about it, but I need to know what you mean when you say that because, as we know, these this verbiage just starts to get used in the world without people having a clear understanding of what they're saying and I can't correct or even learn from you if you don't know what you're saying, because you're just using rhetoric that you've heard somewhere else.
Speaker 1:A Vest member asked how can you foster genuine relationships to help you be more effective, and how can you find true allies at work? This is how our guests responded.
Speaker 2:So I love this, both of these questions, because I feel like they connect the two questions in the chat. One relationships are my favorite. Like the first two to three years for us was about relationships. I'm talking coffee, I'm talking lunch, and the reason why I say it's my favorite is I'll give you one example. When I first got to the city, people were like, oh my gosh, how do I avoid this lady, right. But once I was like, hey, how can I help, how can I serve you?
Speaker 2:And having these conversations I will never forget, about a year and a half in one of our directors, over one of our really, really big he doesn't care if I share it utilities, so he's our largest department outside of public safety. He was like let me, can I take you to lunch so we can argue? Can I pay for your lunch so we can argue? And I was like not gonna argue. And he was like no, I just know you're gonna disagree with something and I really wanna try to find a common ground. That is a win for him to say like I know you disagree, but I feel like you are a safe place to disagree with for us to find a solution. You are a safe place to disagree with for us to find a solution. And while I did disagree, I absolutely disagreed. What was really cool? Call it the universe, call it God, call it whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2:The next day, hr reaches out to me about something, because what's beautiful about my role is I'm not in HR. It works in some organizations. I love it because I report directly to an assistant city manager and can walk. I'm in the city manager's office, so consider it the CEO. I can walk straight up to the CEO, the city manager, and it removes a lot of barriers and we can talk about that in a second. On a lot of things that I would love to talk to CEOs about and DEI like please, but I say that to say HR came to me no-transcript, sexist, homophobic, whatever that looks like, right, and that's what they're understanding. Because some of them will say, shaylin, I thought you were going to get here and call us all racist and I was like no, if you are racist, we can talk about it, but most of it is not about you being racist, right, and so it's really about relationships. We're seeing it left and right, but it took time and I will say some people like someone on my team before. She was very honest in saying, like I don't know that this work is for me because I don't have time for this, like I don't want to coddle. Sometimes it can feel like coddling, sometimes it can feel like you're babying people, but I just look at the long-term game to know that if I can get these people to see usually white men, to see themselves in this work and how it affects and helps them, they will come on board.
Speaker 2:I literally have example after example. I have one it wasn't here because I also consult, but somebody was basically like well, I interviewed a black and a white person and of course, the white person got it because he was groomed for the role. I interviewed a black and a white person and of course, the white person got it because he was groomed for the role. I was literally able to ask one question. I said what do you mean by that? Instantly he's like ah right, he instantly understood. He was groomed, quote unquote, and I'm sorry if that triggers anyone, but that's literally the words that he used. He literally understood. He had access to me.
Speaker 2:We hung out, I knew his, his dreams, I put him on special projects right and now in his organization he's one of the biggest mentors. We have that also at the city. One of the first programs that I started was a mentor circle program. I know that one oak had it for a while. I know other organizations have it and at first people even to this day they're like Shaylin, why is mentor, even mentorship, something that you even care about at at the city? Like, why aren't you worried about something else?
Speaker 2:I say because tell me about a time that this many senior leaders have been able to impact this many employees alone. But then look at the demographics of the employees that we're serving and when we can get people to understand this is about access and these types of things they see themselves in this work because then I can do something about that. I can mentor people, I can do that right. And so I'm saying that because that's how we've created allies. We've created allies by really being intentional about saying this is how this looks, this is how I need you to show up at your level in the organization and this is why it is not scary. It should not be scary to you. The last thing I'll say is we remain a resource to them. I will tell them. You do not have to have all the answers because I don't Thank you both.
Speaker 1:Thank you both for sharing your perspective, definitely on, you know maybe, the misconception of performative DEI efforts, but then also how you address the you can address employees and create allies in your role can address employees and create allies in your role. I did want to give Srujita a chance, if she wants to jump on and ask her question, because I think it's also important as someone in the workplace maybe not specifically in your role how to create more allies as well.
Speaker 4:Oh, I think Shailen and Michael touched on that. But yeah, I can just expand that. You know it gets frustrating to often be at least in the rooms that I am, to be the only minority speaking up about these issues, and sometimes it's like, oh, there she goes again, sort of. So it's. And I've had great conversations, you know one on one, where it's nodding and it's not combative, but then there's still no speaking up and it just gets frustrating because there's only so much I can do and I want to keep doing it. But I also don't want that label of being like she's the one always bringing it up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think that's the like, that's the double bind, and that frustrating part about being any of the quote, unquote others in settings where you're just not a lot of us is like, I want to like, I'll use me, I want to show up as a strategist. That's what I'm good at. That's how my brain works. I'm very good at that. I'm seen still as the black strategist, right, or the DEI guy because of a number of factors, right, and I sit with that because that's needed for now in order to create the future where someone else can show up in that way. And so I think ways in which I've done that effectively is putting the folks in the room in positions, and this is, I would say, difficult. The further up in an organization you go, because the level of daily privilege is just so strong, it's hard. But typically in those rooms there's other folks that's like yeah, don't you have responsibilities outside of work? Aren't you a caregiver outside of work? Do you have kids outside of work? Do you navigate this aspect? And so when we talk about any topic in work, that's like here's how we make the workplace more conducive to the number of these factors that someone's benefiting from or having to deal with it makes it much easier for them to be like oh yeah, this is true, this impacts me too. Or, yes, like I've, I've had to take my mom to an eye doctor's appointment and yet it took. You know, it was supposed to be 30 minutes, but she wasn't ready, and then we were 10 minutes late and then, like it just right, the things that happen and so I think that's what that, for me, that's where those relationships come from is like knowing who those folks are and then speaking my language to them and sometimes giving them my words of like yeah, it would be really great if we had more equitable systems so that folks that are taking care of their parents could be able to do that.
Speaker 3:We know that's a growing demographic that is going to do nothing but grow more. How are we being intentional about that? And then, when those bulbs click off, I'm like, oh yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have to do this. That helps, but I think the difficult part is so many, especially when we think of the older generations the idea that life and the idea that work should be hard is a central belief, and that's like. I think the hardest mental thing that I see folks struggle with is like I just don't believe that, like things can be better. But if I believe things should be hard, then it's very hard to ever talk about why we should make them easier, because it should be hard and that. I think that's just a frustrating part. So that's take that as you will, but I think that's where I've seen success is kind of putting that into their language and their lived experience.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I also wanted to comment. A VAS member commented as well, saying that maybe in the past she felt worried she was speaking over or in place of someone with their own lived experience, but she had friends and colleagues guide her and, in essence, give her permission to serve as an ally. So sometimes just saying that out loud and getting outside of maybe our own misconceptions of what it means to be an ally too, might be helpful maybe our own misconceptions of what it means to be an ally, too, might be helpful.
Speaker 2:Well, one thing I'd just like to say is what we don't know is are these people more comfortable sometimes having these conversations outside of the rooms that we're in? Whether it's because it's not appropriate to correct somebody Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's not in a public setting, but maybe they're talking after the meeting or maybe they didn't plan on it. But that's when we can say, like, would you be open to having this conversation, Because sometimes I'm not even the one that's qualified to be the one to say something right. But allyship can be really tricky because you also don't want to speak for someone that doesn't want to be spoken for. Right, Because I know that there's moments where there's been people that's like, why did you even say that to me? For me I was fine, you know, and so it's just really tricky. So I just think it's relationships outside of those rooms. So you have a better idea of how they show up. You might find out that they talk to their peers all the time, or their peers don't like them anymore because they spoke up too much.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, Definitely some important again just assumptions and misconceptions to keep in mind and, at the end of the day, like you said, just keeping respect at the forefront, right? Well, going back again, we have leaders, women in different organizations, different industries, leaders in their respective fields as well, and I would love to hear from both of you maybe what strategies you've seen that organizations and that have worked right, that organizations use to create those inclusive environments where all employees feel valued and heard, maybe even despite those external challenges and distractions. I know you've mentioned a few, but maybe just some tips and tricks for best members or people that are listening on the podcast that they can kind of take back to their organizations as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely depends on what you're doing. So I think when I've consulted with organizations, I'm much more of like typically, someone there who's bringing me in has said a lot of the stuff I've already said. They just need to hear it from someone else to soften it and oftentimes just to be transparent. Sometimes it, coming from a male voice to a room full of men, lands differently than it did the woman that's been shouting her head off for the past two years before she brought me in Right, so I'll just name that to be very clear. Her hat off for the past two years before she brought me in Right, so I'll just name that to be very clear.
Speaker 3:I think in my organization what I've, what I like hang my hat on a lot, is like I'm not in the business of changing hearts and minds. If I could, I would find something very lucrative to do where I could change hearts. I'm in the business of creating systems and strategies that are inclusive, and the nature of creating systems and structures where you're, you are rewarded and you are seen and you are valued for being inclusive means folks that don't have those skills will either naturally weed themselves out or will be like oh, that's something we need to do more of. So, like I do things like our competencies. Every organization has some level of how you evaluated on. We have a competency that I added in my first year of values differences, which means you need to, as a leader, have things that you're doing on a daily basis or not a daily basis, but things you're doing enough to report on your end of year evaluation. What are you doing to show that you value differences? Is it ERGs, is it mentorship? Is it this community project? So it's putting those things into how people are actually evaluated. So then, on the front end, all of the trainings, the mentoring, the coaching, that's now becomes a pull instead of a push on the organization. I want those things because then I'm better prepared to do my job, so that I'm evaluated fairly, because ultimately this impacts my pay right.
Speaker 3:So I'm very big on like building systems and structures and that's what I've seen like be super helpful for that. Because then that leader that was doing the every Friday barbecue that he was wanting to do to be fun and build perspective and like have a good time with his employees and you have three vegetarians have just eaten beans and potato salad for two months, like that's not, they jam right. But when you get that awareness of like, oh, I want to get better at that. What are ways I can fix my like structures I have now? It's simple, it's easy.
Speaker 3:I help you match your intentions, because a lot of leaders have really strong intentions that they just miss with their impact um and so that's what I've seen a lot of um. And then there's like the big structures right, employee resource groups help a lot. Uh, diversity, inclusion councils that help make decisions help a lot, but I really hang my hat on like a lot. Diversity and inclusion councils that help make decisions help a lot, but I really hang my hat on a lot of the policies around evaluation. If I can get something in there that we're saying this is how you show that you value this work and you're doing this work. It's going to really help ease the burden of stuff happening.
Speaker 2:So, for me, I like to remind people and I'm going to oversimplify this one, and this has nothing to do with my current role because I'm in the municipality but I like to remind people that money talks, and if our organizations and we have some really big ones on this call, if our organizations would get very courageous and bold, and what we aren't willing to fund anymore and what we are willing to fund like so much would change right. And so I'll give an example. I used to. I was consulting with an organization that gave to an organization that, like, if you read the fine print, had some discriminatory stuff in it tied to the LGBTQ community as an organization. If you say that you value all people you're showing up in the pride parades, why are you giving money to this organization that clearly says we do not value all people? That's not matching. And so what is the strategy there? Even if it's telling that organization, I need you to either have this conversation and fix it in the next couple of years, like I'm not saying just go remove the rug from everybody. That is not what I'm saying. But if it's selling organizations like this is the expectation that I have of you, if I'm going to continue to give man, will we change a lot of things? Right, and I know that that might not necessarily feel like it applies to the colleges, but let's be honest, we love to go and, you know, set up a booth at the recruiting fairs. How are we also saying I will invest in your organizations if you continue to do X, y, z, because I need these students to come to us ready. We need these students to come to us ready. I need you to be practicing this in the universities. Don't come here with that stuff. Right. And if more organizations would step up and really put their money where their mouth is, to be honest, we say we're committed to it. What does our dollar show? Where are we willing to show up? And a lot of people on this call have that power right.
Speaker 2:As CEOs, no matter the size of your organization, being very intentional about where you give in itself could help change the trajectory of this conversation. Because, like what gets funded, like really you know it's also. It's kind of similar as like what's measured is moved right. Same with funded Like. If I put more resources into these organizations that are standing up for the right things, but they need our money, we can really change a lot and I think we all understand that because we know that money talks right, and I know it's easier said than done. Like I want to be really clear. I know you can't go to some organization, especially on here, if you aren't the CEO. Sometimes we're only funding that because the CEO has some commitment to it, right, like we're only showing up to that college because the CEO and all of the generations after the CEO graduated from that college. So I'm really aware that this is way easier said than done, but that's really where a lot of the stuff would move if we would look at our dollars.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll show you like, just to add. I think our big cause that's a part of the human rights campaign is like for customers and suppliers even as a company, we have non-discriminatory policy, we do not discriminate. We require that of our suppliers, to say that they don't discriminate, but we don't for folks that we give charitable to right, and so that idea like that's the same conversation is like hey, if we hold ourselves to that standard, just why would we not hold others to that standard, right, even as blanketed as that allows those wheels to start?
Speaker 1:turning for folks. I love that Absolutely and I think that's a very, very much needed topic, especially in states, you know, like Oklahoma and Texas, where a majority of our best members are, where you know, right now we're seeing a lot of anti-DI programs and laws and things like that. So thank you for the truthfulness and honesty on that, I think to Erica's question.
Speaker 3:Gabby, I know we're getting close on time. I think, like my like quick answer on that is like we were very clear with organizations. We were on the phone with OU and OSU like days after the executive order came out saying, like cool, this is still what we're looking for for students. And so while I'll be supportive of XYZ if that means that I'm giving to first generations in college programs like that's what I'm going to do and I think the pressure of them to advocate for themselves of like I won't always give to the College of Business, I'm going to give to that student organization that supports those students, right.
Speaker 3:And so if it's even outside of this, like DEI umbrella, I'm wanting women in STEM. So I need to be figuring out and y'all can support me if you want to be a part of this how am I getting women from STEM from your campuses and how are we making that work? And so that's been kind of our approach is like the reason we partnered with you in the first place is because we want this talent, and if y'all have to dance through hoops to figure out how that works, you can a part of that with us or we can just be like hey, we're going to provide scholarships for 12 Black kids to go to the National Blacks in Energy Conference and then we're going to go recruit them there. It doesn't matter to me. I want to continue to be in partnership and have access to this talent.
Speaker 2:So what did he just say? In two words Money talks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:I want to be really clear when I say that. Again, I want to say it is not in the capacity of my current role because we can't give money to anybody, but as Shailene, as a human, just likes to remind people that many times We've had, I think, so many takeaways from this session, but what is your last piece of advice or takeaways to CEO, best members and those listening to the podcast?
Speaker 3:Yeah, quick takeaways. Ground yourself in research. The demographics of the workforce is changing, the values of what people want in the workforce is changing and will continue to change, and then how people want to work is changing. You can choose to be on the front end of that and have access to the most brilliant talent, or you can choose to be on the back end and fight it. But it is very clear that it's changing and there's nothing that we can do about that, and organizations that are trying are going to continue to struggle. So lean into the future, continue to build your awareness and perspective through opinions, through talking to folks and through data.
Speaker 2:As humans. I just want to remind everyone, like if most of us inherently are good people and almost all of us are going to say we're good people and we really need to ask ourselves if what we're saying and doing really aligns with being a great person. Like, are we really taking care of humans, no matter what we call it? Are we loving humans? Humans I know people feel like that's too touchy-feely, but the truth is, this is about loving one another enough to say how can I show up for you in a way that you continue to show up for our business? At the end of the day, you are getting the best out of your people. When you take care of people, people take care of you and unfortunately, sometimes you got to connect to the dollar and you got to connect it to the business, for people. Take care of people and people will take care of you. That's for colleagues, that's for you know, no matter what, that's for everybody.
Speaker 2:What I specifically want to say for CEOs is that it's time to get bold, it's time to get courageous. Ceos can't stay silent anymore. Ceos have because I know a number of CEOs that are committed to this they just know that, when it comes to you know, their constituents or their board. They have to have a different voice. Man, talk about even that in itself not being able to live authentically. That's wild. But if enough of us would speak up because most of us don't dislike DEI, it's the distractors and the people that are willing to get really bold and loud that's getting a lot of attention. Most of us are committed to this conversation or, at bare minimum, committed to doing the right thing for people, but we're scared, whether it's because we're going to lose money, we're going to lose relationships, whatever that looks like and so I just like to remind people, but especially CEOs, like this is the time to be bold, courageous, really lean in and then just be reminded of what you needed when you were on the front line.
Speaker 2:A lot of times I see leaders making decisions in ways that they would have never wanted their leader to make the decision when they were on the front line, really thinking, and a lot of that is about spending time with these individuals, whether it's twice a year, going into the front line, working alongside them, doing focus groups, whatever that looks like, just to be reminded of what we needed, Because a lot of times I'll hear leaders be like I can't believe they asked for that. You would have asked for that. The reason why you're not asking for it is because you have that ability. Let's talk about working from home. You have the flexibility to leave right now and do whatever it is you need to do. So I know I just got back on another soapbox, but just really it's about empathy. Equity is empathy, DEI work is empathy, and if we can be empathetic, we can go so far.
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