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VEST Her Podcast
A podcast exploring the invisible barriers holding women back in the workplace and sharing stories of women navigating careers and building power collectively.
VEST Her Podcast
A Deep Dive into Women's Sports
Imagine a world where women's sports stand shoulder to shoulder with men's, where the prowess and athleticism of female athletes are celebrated instead of their appearance. This utopia is not so far-fetched if we rally behind the mission of the Women's Sports Foundation. We sat down for an eye-opening conversation with Danette, dissecting the highs and lows of women in sports, the pressing need for equal investment, and the gender-specific hurdles that still plague the industry.
We didn't merely stop at debating the challenges; we took a profound look at how we can overturn societal norms that suppress women athletes. From challenging expectations and norms to redefining the narrative around women in sports. The conversation also steered towards the invaluable role sports play in fostering a sense of community and providing life lessons for girls and women - two crucial aspects that underline the importance of sports in their overall development.
Beyond the playing field, the discussion moved into the challenges parents face in a youth sports system that favors certain socioeconomic backgrounds. We shared some practical advice when encouraging young women to consider careers in the sports industry. We also examined the scarcity of women in C-Suite sports roles and the skills needed for growth opportunities. So, if you're ready to explore the changing landscape of sports distribution, understand the importance of equal pay, and align with the long-term objectives of the Women's Sports Foundation, this conversation is for you.
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and founding member of Vest, an organization connecting women across industries, regions and career levels so that together we can expedite the pipeline of more women in positions of power and influence. Welcome to another episode of the Vestor podcast, where we explore the investable barriers holding women back in the workplace and share stories of women building power collectively.
Speaker 2:I would say in women's sports in general, there's significant challenges in investment. You know we have great momentum behind us finally, but that momentum still requires investment from brands and media rights holders and others to understand the importance of giving them their due. We still only receive about 4% of the sponsorship revenue. That's in the sports business. For those of you in philanthropy, the other side that's absolutely frustrating is that in this country, less than 2% of girls and women serving philanthropic organizations receive philanthropic funding.
Speaker 2:You know there is a term that's used in college athletics that I can't stand around women's sports. They've always been defined as non-revenue generating sports. So I'm going to ask all of you some of you that are, you know, venture capitalists or starting a business would you ever look at a lens and define any business or any organization as non-revenue generating? You think you're going to make investment in that if that's how you're defined? So there's some natural things that just have to be shifted in a mindset that maybe it started that way because it was the right way to give them the opportunity to start playing 50 years ago. If they don't invest in something, they're going to stay in that place.
Speaker 1:In this episode, we talked to Danette Leaton, ceo of the Women's Sports Foundation, an organization that has been advocating for women's rights in the world of sports for nearly five decades. Founded in 1974 by the one and only Billie Jean King, the Women's Sports Foundation has invested more than $100 million to improve access and opportunities for girls and women in sports. And, as we talked to Danette about the challenges girls and women in sports are facing now, what can we do as individuals and business leaders to level the playing field in sports and how can we support the Women's Sports Foundation as it continues its mission to expand access and opportunities for girls and women in sports? For Danette's full bio and show notes, go to wwwvestherco.
Speaker 1:This episode is made possible thanks to our venture arm, vest Her Ventures, a venture capital firm investing in women led companies, building tools, products and services that enable women and working families to try both at work and at home, and by our Vest membership, a community made up of professional women across industries, regions and career levels, working together to create the future of more inclusive workspaces. If you're interested in learning more about Vest Her Ventures and Vest Peer Network, go to wwwvestherco. If you enjoy the episode, share it with a friend, and don't forget to leave us a review. This episode was part of a more intimate coaching session with Vest members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode. Tell us more about the mission and the work of the Women in Sports Foundation and why it's still essential in today's sporting landscape.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the Women's Sports Foundation, as you heard from Erica and it's lovely to be here, great to meet you all I hope we can have a really just, transparent and great conversation. It doesn't matter that I'm in the sports industry. Everything is transferable, as I've learned, so I look forward to having conversations that you all have. The Women's Sports Foundation really started because it started two years after the passing of Title IX. So I see in some of the chats I see an avid cyclist, which my husband would love because he is the same avid cyclist.
Speaker 2:But the reality is women's sports really didn't exist until Title IX and that was just over 50 years ago. Billy was playing tennis at the time and the irony of Billy and I don't know if she ever slept 50 years ago, but yesterday I chanted you were watching ESPN2, the Battle of the Sexes match was on with her against Bobby Riggs, which obviously was a big moment for women's rights and a big moment for at the time people didn't believe that women could play sports, played a certain level and really earned the way that the same that men should earn and at the same time she was working to get equal pay at the US Open and that 50-year celebration we just celebrated in New York two years ago. So everything about the Women's Sports Foundation and what Billy has done. We really are women's rights organization that has used sports as our platform and we're really a microcosm of society to recognize that when girls and women have access to sports, it changes their lives immensely, and so our tagline is when there's equality in sports, there's equality in life. And many of us and I would ask all of you, it doesn't matter what level sport you played, it doesn't matter if you only played in your youth, it doesn't matter if you went on to be an Olympian and a lead athlete, like a lot of our athletes are. It's really the life lessons that are part of it, and that access point and the entire ecosystem for women's sports is what the Women's Sports Foundation fights for.
Speaker 2:So we do everything from fighting for policy and advocacy on the Hill and from a political perspective and making sure that bills like Title IX are protected or other things that we think could jeopardize girls having access. We do grant giving across the entire country for different reasons, whether that be our Sports for Life program, which is really targeted towards more of the BIPOC community of girls and making sure that they have more opportunities to play sports in different marginalized communities. And that's just an example of one grant that we do, and we also do a significant amount of research, and that's really where our credibility and our reputation has come from is that we could pick a different topic, that you could cross over anything from a societal perspective and show why, when girls play sports, it impacts them in different positive ways. Currently, we're in a mental health research project around women's sports, but if you look and spend some time on our website, you'll see how much research we've done to prove the model over and over again. The girls need to be able to play sports.
Speaker 2:Period. I love that, danette.
Speaker 1:in recent times, we've witnessed how women's sports has become the subject of political debate, often with implications for the transgender community. How do you perceive the role of politics and shape into discourse around women in sports, and what are your thoughts on the political or potential consequences, both negative and positive, for gender equity and inclusivity in athletic spaces?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the trans inclusion topic is a very complex one, I think you could see. Over our history, sports has navigated its way. We've always wanted to be, and expect to be, bipartisan. We've always meant to be something that's non-political. Sports has always brought communities together, brought different people together, different races together, and if you look at our history, you'll see how sports has really impacted our society overall by being able to make that change and do those things.
Speaker 2:We feel very strongly that every child should have the ability to play sports everybody.
Speaker 2:Sports is incredibly important to everyone, and so that is something that we feel strongly about the Women's Sports Foundation and for our trans community, both trans girls and trans boys should have the ability to play sports at the youth level, and I think the one thing that is disappointing is to see how this has become a politicized topic.
Speaker 2:But we also understand for those that are in women's sports and for those of us that also work within the elite sports side. The elite sports side and competition is very different from youth sports and there is the potential need for some regulations, potentially with a pathway towards inclusion, for that to be managed and handled by each of the national governing bodies, so they have to be looked at really differently and unfortunately they're not, and I think we also look at things through the very, very large lens of making sure that everybody is protected and all women are protected, and I think that's where we come in to try to help people understand that this isn't a political issue. This is really about access and inclusion and opportunity and, just like I would say, probably what happened if you think about the Jackie Robinson era and others, it's been. If I may breathe, you have a moving motion? Yes, absolutely. It's really disappointing to see people not recognizing that the opportunity for every young person to play sports is only going to make the society a better place, period.
Speaker 1:You work in both pro and college sports and you're now focused on research and advocacy and all of the programming that you guys are doing. What are some of the key challenges that women athletes still face in various sports, both at the amateur level and professional arena?
Speaker 2:But we could probably spend nine hours talking about that. So I think another example of us where I think sports really becomes a platform is is the pay gap. The pay gap is real, the pay gap you know we get. We have a big platform and our athletes have a big platform to talk about it. You know, nothing makes me happier when I'm watching us open trophy presentation and Billy's on the stage with Coco Goff and Coco gets a $3 million check and she leans over and thanks Billy for it.
Speaker 2:There's a reason why Billy fought for what you fought for, but that transcends sports. The intent has really been to always look at things. Sports has been a we've been able to do things through that sports lens, but it's really meant to do things across the entire pay gap and gender equality and equity gap across everything in the United States and globally. So I think for us that's something that you know we worked hard fighting for us on this national team and working with them and collaboration with them and with our resources for them to get equal pay. But there is significant challenges there. I would say in women's sports in general, there's significant challenges and investment. You know we have great momentum behind us finally, but that momentum still requires investment from brands and media rights holders and others to understand the importance of giving them their do. That is starting to happen. We still don't have enough and we still only receive about 4% of the sponsorship revenue. That's in the sports business. For those of you in philanthropy, the other side that's absolutely frustrating is that in this country, less than 2% of girls and women serving philanthropic organizations receive philanthropic funding less than 2%. So if you look at all this and tie this all together, it's really about women's rights and women's opportunities and creating a quality for women. We have a big stage to use in sports and we try to drive those different themes.
Speaker 2:And so in college and in pros you know there is a term that's used in college athletics that I can't stand around women's sports. They've always been defined as non revenue generating sports. So I'm going to ask all of you some of you that are, you know, venture capitalists or starting a business would you ever look at a lens and define any business or any organization as non revenue generating? You think you're going to make investment in that if that's how you're defined? So there's some natural things that just have to be shifted in a mindset that maybe it started that way because it was the right way to give them the opportunity to start playing 50 years ago. But if you don't invest in something, they're going to stay in that place, and so, on the college side, it's really, really important that women are invested in and women's sports programs are invested in, and that broad based sports programming continues to thrive for women. It still is one of the biggest educational reasons why women, especially women of color, have been educated has been college scholarships and given a lot of first generation opportunities for women and people of color, and that's something that I think is also still really important, because there is only a less than 1% that go become WNBA Olympians. There's more women that are going on to lead businesses and become CEOs and others.
Speaker 2:And I think the one stat that I utilize all the time, which is why I think so strongly about sport it doesn't matter what level sport I played in.
Speaker 2:I worked in a male dominated industry my entire career. I have amazing male allies that have backed me up, but the reality for me of knowing how to play sports I learned how to lose, and when you know how to lose, you know how to win. In negotiating, you know how to win in business, you know how to collaborate, you know how to have discipline, and those attributes are so critical for women and girls to have, and sports is the best entree for them to have that. So there are tons of areas that we see challenges for girls and women that still don't have the right access, don't have the right equality, whether it be through sport or investment, and also there's challenges with the entire ecosystem just being at risk. The collegiate system is really at risk and the pro system has been one in which people are just trying to compare it to that. We they think we should be exactly at the same place as the men, but people forget we've only been playing sports for 50 years and it's really not that long.
Speaker 1:The spite be in 50% of the population, despite being 50% of the labor, for the spite represented 85% of consumer spending. The spite represented 10 trillion dollars in purchasing power. Like to see this numbers? Did you say 4% of brand sponsorships goes to women's sports?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the numbers have probably increased. But some of the last stats were around receiving about less like less than 4% of kind of sponsorship and media rights revenue, which is in the business side of sports has been the two primary ways that it's the funding mechanism of sports. If you look at it through the lens of kind of how men's sports has kind of worked for a long time sponsorship, ticket sales and then media rights like being on television or being in some form of production so people can see you and watch. You have been kind of the system in which sports has been built around and for the longest time those percentages have been really really small towards women very hard to find women's sports. Maybe up until two or three years ago still hard to find a lot of women. Sports is very fragmented but those actual deals have been very small and the amount of sponsors up until recently has been very small.
Speaker 2:But even though we've seen some momentum behind it, it's still not the numbers that we need to be at compared to you know where you see some of our men's sports, but doing it in a fair way and in a way to understand where we are in our history and where we are in our cycle, but it requires investment, just like it requires investment anything from a business perspective, and I think that's the challenge that has face women sports and that we finally have had interest and we're getting the audience and we're getting the numbers.
Speaker 2:And you're seeing things like Coco goffs match, you know was seen, was watched more than the male match. Women's Final Four this year with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese was, you know, had ridiculous viewership. So the positive side for so long for us that have tried to, like, as I say, push the other uphill to sell women's sports, is we always had to fight those numbers and now it's nice to be able to pull those numbers, you know, specifically across digital platforms, because those didn't exist and there's just more places in which we can disseminate our content. We still have a long way to go for that investment side from businesses and wanting more ownership, to want to buy and run women's proteins is another example that starting to be more on the rise, but we still have tons of work to do as it relates to those leagues being able to thrive and those players getting play what they deserve, getting pay what they deserve, to be paid no-transcript, which is the pillar.
Speaker 1:What else could we be doing? When it comes to the gender pay gap, how do we address this in a way that's fairly compensated but also across the board, because you do see a little bumps in different sports, but I think it depends on the region, it depends on the sport. What do you have to add on that?
Speaker 2:I get asked this question all the time and this is going to be the most basic, simple answer. I don't care where you sit on your ecosystem of how much money you have or what you choose to do with your money. I will tell you the easiest thing that any individual can do and it's what has always bothered me, especially being half of the population buy a ticket to a game, support a women's program. I don't care if it's college, I don't care if it's high school, I don't care if it's pro. Go be a ticket holder and buy a jersey, like buy some gear and buy a ticket. It doesn't mean you have to go become the next owner. It doesn't mean you have to do this. One of the biggest challenges is just rallying our entire village of women and incredible male allies to want to be fans and supporters of women's sports. When you do something as simple as that like I've spent my whole life putting a butt in a seat and being responsible for putting a butt in a seat, whether it be men's sports or women's sports you help that ecosystem for that individual team or that league grow. Follow them on your social media platforms, amplify their stories. It can be really basic and very fundamental, rudimentary, and when we do that, we start to prove the model of the importance and the value of women's sports, which then does a lot of the things that we talk about helps to become an example from a society perspective of that fairness and the other component of it when you want to make sure that girls continue to have access to playing sports. So I use myself as an example.
Speaker 2:I was a ninth grade middle school dropout and from a women's sports foundation standpoint, that basically means that there is a the highest percentage of girls that quit playing sports is in middle school for like a plethora of reasons, and we could go through that on another question.
Speaker 2:But when that happens, then those next you know those women don't become the leaders that you want them to be, don't have those opportunities. But when girls play sports at any level, there is a reason why 94% of C-suite women play sports. So you're going to see a pattern when more women play sports become in those decision-making positions. We're starting to see that Now those decision makers who are the CMOs of major brands are investing in women's sports. Now you're seeing them lead major consulting agencies. You're seeing them starting their own investment funds. So it's that ecosystem that we all can be a part of, and it doesn't matter where you are on that journey, and I think that's what could be very, very powerful to show the power of women's capability to really build an economy, and I think that's something that people forget about too. From a women's sports perspective, again, we can be this platform, but it serves a much bigger purpose as it relates to what we do for society, because we get that microscope on us which is good and bad.
Speaker 1:Obviously representation matters. So how do we promote better representation, not just with women athletes, but women in sports in general, media, coaching, leadership roles? So Christina is asking hi Denaen, how do we support more women in sports who are not athletes? How do we elevate women in the front office positions across all sports?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's what I also use myself as an example. I didn't play softball past ninth grade, right? So if you really look at me like you can say I played in my youth but I didn't play past that. I was never an elite athlete, but I learned those life lessons right, and those life lessons then transition me into becoming an executive in sports. And once I had that opportunity I was very, very aware and I think I know Amy heard me say this when I was with the Oklahoma City Thunder Women's Resource Group is that once I became a vice president, it was very apparent that I was very alone in that room and it became even more apparent every level that I increased in my career that it was my job, as simply as I could, to be that role model for the next generation behind me, not just as a great leader and developer of women, but a great leader and developer of men too, who could see what it's like to work for a strong woman and be successful at it. If this is to me, success for us is being able to do that across genders, but to be really deliberate in how you hire, how you develop people and how you work towards making sure that you think about hiring a diverse workforce, and that has been very deliberate in my career and when I had the opportunity to build teams. I'm very, very sensitive to that and I'm very deliberate about it, and I think that's something we all have to do. It's taking baby steps in each space that you're in. It doesn't matter if you're starting your managing career, you manage one person or you're all the way up in the ecosystem. I do think you have to be. You have to understand that you're going to be a role model for people and people are going to look at you and that you are going to be under more scrutiny and under more pressure to be successful and you're going to be looked at a lot, and I think that's something that, if you're willing to take that on, you can be a very powerful leader to help continue to elevate women on the business side of sports, which I think I've spent my career really trying to do and I see a huge difference from when I started to where we are today. I mean, you did not have general managers of major league baseball teams that were women. You did not have female referees in the NFL that are women. You did not have presidents of NBA teams that are women. That is changing and that is happening.
Speaker 2:But I think you could say this transfers across every industry. This isn't just sport. I have these conversations here in the Bay Area with my friends in tech, I mean in the financial wealth management, I mean it is like the exact same conversation. I just happen to be in sports. So I think this is just something that you have to take on as a leader and I think the more that we can do that cross functioning with both men and women, they will see that it doesn't really matter who you work for. You're just working for a really great human being who is helping them develop and be better, and it helps us elevate more women in the positions.
Speaker 2:I would say the other piece which I'm hopeful is changing Women have to support women, period. This whole competition that they need to be the only one in the boardroom, that home mindset, needs to be thrown in the trash. Can I think early on that was something that people just thought oh my gosh, I'm not going to be able to have this job, I have to be the only one. So this whole idea that you accept the crumbs or you have to be the only one is just absurd. We're just going to you know.
Speaker 2:I would like to say there's a special place for women that choose to be that way, and that's not how we need to be. It takes a village, and that's something that I'm really, really passionate about, because it's lonely when you're in those rooms by yourself. It was very lonely for me during certain phases of my career and personal life of being a female by yourself, when everybody's around you our men and when you're going through wanting to become a mom and you're like, oh hi, nobody else is like that. What am I going to do? How am I going to do that? You just have a lot of things that you learn on your own by not having people that look like you, and representation matters. It just does.
Speaker 1:There's another great question in the chat. Kendra shared it with us. She says I see the same likeability dilemma showing up for women athletes as we see in corporate, in the corporate setting. How can we effectively reframe societal expectations of women on and off the court?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. Yeah, so some of the things that we get in the women's athletic space, especially when they're elite, is they're just treated differently, right? Strong, physical, intense, competitive women. There's times in which people are like, oh well, why should a woman act?
Speaker 3:like that.
Speaker 2:There was this whole thing during the women's Final Four between Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. Right, there was this whole put your in your fate and the irony was it wasn't even to each other. People actually, like the social media, blew it up and it became something super silly. But behind that all was that people thought that women couldn't like athletes, couldn't have swagger and couldn't be competitive. It's like that's what you want to see on the court, like that swagger, that competitive feeling. Nobody questions that with guys. But the fact that we have and both of those women are amazing Angel Reese and Caitlin are amazing and they are competitors, holy cow, and they are incredibly great at their craft and they're going to be great representatives for their sport and they're changing their sport and they're creating a platform that's pretty powerful. So I think what it's again it's it's walking the talk. You have to be supportive of that through the mediums in which you can support.
Speaker 2:I am a big believer in amplifying and supporting behavior that I think is great for women's sports. I think it's really important to prove that. That is, you know that likability can go in different ways and if we don't do it, who's going to do it? And I will tell you, I was watching the Battle of Sexes match last night. That was on ESPN2. And I probably spit out my drink like six times because I couldn't believe what the commentators were saying.
Speaker 2:But that was in 1973, right, and it was Howard Pacell and and I'm like, oh my gosh, you could never say that today. So there has been change, that's been made from 1973 to 2023. But it still requires everybody to be accepting of that and be accepting of people, and women in particular, in those really elite roles can look a little different, can be strong and competitive and physical and have a little swagger, and that's a good thing. So I think that's what you referenced by likability dilemma. But if I didn't answer that right, kendra, you can clarify for me. But that's how I, that's how I heard it.
Speaker 4:Maybe, maybe, if I could add on, maybe it's likabilities Worse. It seems like some of the sports that are more accepted are ones in which beautiful women are. Beautiful women are featured more. I don't know if there's a way or if there's suggestions you have for how we can redirect the conversation to the athleticism, as opposed to the appearance of the athletes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. You know it's a dilemma that I think a lot of people ask us about. Do I love when female athletes are over sexualized? No, but then I also come at it from a lens of if an individual and athlete wants to have that be her approach to receiving her endorsements and taking advantage of that, who am I to say that if that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do, right.
Speaker 2:But I do think, much like in anything in society because I can speak to this for running a WNBA franchise very early on in the league I still think other triggers are at play. I do think that early on in the WNBA we were primarily an African American league, primarily a roster, a very significant LGBTQ plus roster, and I think there was a lot of biases towards different things like that, much like what happened to Billie very early on when she came out, you know, obviously later in her career. So I do think from a societal perspective, there are some things which is very different than maybe how the 1999 USA women's soccer team was looked at, because they looked a very different way, right. And so I think it's important to know that we are the ones that can make that change and show and be the example of supporting them, representing them, amplifying their stories.
Speaker 2:It's that simple thing that I don't care what somebody looks like, where their background is, I want to go watch a really fun sport and competitive athletes and I will go every day to a WNBA basketball game, an NWSL game, a college game and enjoy the athleticism of them playing and it has nothing to do with anything but their pure skill, talent. And I've watched, you know, even for my time in women's sports, the progression of it because of really seeing 50 years of girls having these opportunities have just expanded more girls playing, higher and better talent, more elite athletes, like I think about the roster of the Sacramento Monarchs when I started and the roster of today. I think maybe only one or two players would have made the roster from back then to now because there's so much more talent. So I do think it's. There's not a silver bullet or a big, you know big way unless each one of us do it and each one of us live it. I've always been a person to walk the talk and I think it's again for me like support it for what it is. If you love sports, you love a fan of sports, like I don't care who the athlete is, I don't care. I mean, I love watching them for their skill.
Speaker 2:I'm always in awe of watching athletes do things that I could never do. I'm like you know, especially now, as I've gotten a lot older, I'm like oh I, man, how do you do that? So I think you just have to. It's kind of like what your mom and dad taught you very early on in your life. It's no different than treating people the way you want to be treated and recognizing their skill for what their skill is and not making them different because they happen to be women versus men.
Speaker 2:But also everything else is at play. Like I said, races at play, discrimination in other areas have been at play and I think it's hopefully through time, as our society has evolved, more and more and more of those things have gone away. But I think, unfortunately, we've created an even more divisive society at the same time, which is why I think sports are even more important now than ever before, because it still does bring every type of community together. Just look in a crowd of any type of sporting event, male or female, and you'll see diversity like you've never seen.
Speaker 1:What would you say are some key milestones that we have achieved in terms of gender equity thus far?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I think there's a lot of them. You know, I would say you know one of the. I would say one of the biggest things that would be in that area for me has been the reality of how many girls have had access to sport. You know, I always kind of say that we still have. You know, before Title IX. You know, when I have conversations with all the kind of pre-Title Niners, which is pretty much ever-rated buddy above, gen X didn't have the ability to play sports and I recognize that they couldn't even put their foot on the court or in the pool or have an opportunity to play a sport To now. That, like I can say with my daughter's generation it wasn't even a thought she could play anything under the sun that she wanted to play. So as a child she played every sport. So I think that's real positive momentum that it's understood generationally and there's different challenges with those generations not recognizing that you still need to be thankful for Title IX and protect Title IX. But I like the fact that those women have had the opportunity to play anything they want.
Speaker 2:I always say the other real positive and I use this example from my NBA days is that I remember when the Monarchs we were one of the original franchises and I think the older NBA players never had maybe sisters or mothers or aunts or grandmas that played sports. It was very new to them to see professional and basketball players in the same training facility as them. But I did notice something with the rookies and the younger of that NBA roster even back then, which had been probably more like the Steph Currys of today these generations of players. Now, for me, what's so fun to see are the NBA players sitting at the New York Liberty Washington game last night and the interactions that happen between the male and the female athletes and they're them bringing their children to the women's games, like now.
Speaker 2:What's happened is you actually have some of these superstars. Their mothers were the superstar athlete and their family not their father, and I think that's really powerful and I think there's a lot of that generational momentum, because 50 years is a generational change, and so I think that's something that is really positive about where we're going. More and more people, like I said, a common thread of a lot of the executives I talked to that are making decisions about whether or not they're going to fund an organization like us or fund a NWSL team. Those executives played sports. They're women in those roles. I think those are all powerful, changemaking, societal things that are only making kind of society and sports better.
Speaker 1:Being a women's sports organization, women's organization, women rights organization. One of the things I don't know if you've experienced this, but we certainly have with us is that while we are here unapologetically for women, we are very intentional about making sure that, when we're talking about gender equity, about building more inclusive work spaces and fixing the infrastructure that has gotten in the way of not just women but other people achieving economic mobility, we are very intentional about making sure that people know that it's not a women's issue. Even though we're gathering safe spaces for women and we're having this conversation as women, we want men in the room, we want other people in the room, and so I wonder how do you find male allies? What is the role of male athletes, other male professionals? How do you engage them in? You know how would you suggest other organization or other women engage them, whether it's for individual purposes or for the collective, like we're doing here with BEST.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's a great question and I will always say that everything has to be incredibly authentic and genuine in any of these relationships, and throughout my career I've only worked for one woman. One of my bosses has been a man and every one of them has been a male ally to me, even very young and early in my career, giving me opportunities that I didn't even realize I was ready for, maybe back then being really hard on me and harder on me than others, because they saw something in me, but it was always very authentic as far as those relationships were and I think, depending on where you are, kind of, whether it's within your hierarchy of where you work or it's within organizations that you may be a part of a board, depending on what industry that you are in, it's that lead by example mentality, but creating that common ground between you and that person on why a specific issue matters. So for me, it's very easy to have a conversation with who I will think would be male allies, based on what their own personal type of history is, and I try to pay attention to that and the conversations that I have. In some cases it could be they're the father of four daughters that all play sports and that's an easy place for me to have a conversation. In some places, like I said, they happen to have their mom played sports. They're some kind of tie, but it's not necessarily always that. It's also somebody who just has an understanding that when you work within a certain environment, having diverse points of view is important.
Speaker 2:And I found a lot of those male allies on the business side, of those who are truly hiring people not to create the token female in the room or the token diversity in the room. It's because they really want a diverse point of view and they recognize that when they have that diverse point of view and everybody compliments each other, that that team is stronger and that individual is stronger as a leader and I think as leaders we have to be willing. I always say I don't want to hire anybody that's a mini me to me, male or female. I want to hire people that are smarter than me in different areas, that compliment my skill sets. That means you got to check your ego at the door and recognize that if you are going to be the best leader, you can be and run a very successful organization. I don't care what the industry is. You better make sure you're surrounding yourself and surrounding yourself with talent that compliments what you don't have and I think that can be a real weakness of leaders sometimes and wanting to be that authoritative role and not having people that surround them that are smarter than them. And I think when you do that, it actually impacts an overall diverse workforce and it can be ways in which you find more of those male allies, true male allies. So I think it's unique to each individual and how they do it.
Speaker 2:For me it has to be incredibly authentic. I have to find that common ground with each of those individuals and we have had, even prior to my time of joining the Women's Sports Foundation, male ally since the beginning, and I will give Billy a lot of credit. She is always the one that is the biggest believer in saying this is not just a female thing, this is a societal thing. This takes all of us together, men and women, to do this, because it's going to make our society better, it's going to make our economy better. It really. Yes, we are fighting for something to make sure there's a quality for women's rights and to make sure there's opportunity for them. But I think at the end of the day I think somebody's audio is on the screen, somebody's audio is on. There we go. Yes, it's really about creating just a better society. It sounds, I always like my favorite word is cheesy. It just sounds so cheesy. But when you do it well and you do it right, like I've always seen businesses thrive, I've always seen organizations thrive and you have a more authentic relationship with the people that you're with, like people know, like you know Amy knows my relationship with the Oklahoma City Thunder is from an old colleague who is at the Thunder, who was one of my male peers when he was at the Seattle Super Sonics.
Speaker 2:He and I were tight because we respected each other. We never looked at each other from a gender perspective. He respected me for my brain, I respected him for his brain. He was absolutely one of the best male allies I had and he was very young in my career. That's why Brian Bernstein and I have such a great relationship was because of his authentic, genuine. We worked with each other to make each other better. We looked at each other's marketing strategies for each of our teams to see where we could learn from each other, steal from each other, and we worked as a team. And when you have that, you find your male allies. It never was a question that we happen to be two different genders.
Speaker 3:My name is Lindsay Miller. I have a content marketing agency called Content Journey. I also have an eight-year-old daughter and a 10-year-old son. I was an athlete. I sell those lots of Tulsa people. I'm from Ulaagaa. I have a strong athletic program there and played competitive sports all of my life, as soon as girls could play, but I also played on the boys' teams when I was young. That's how into sports and athletics I was.
Speaker 3:I've been trying to play it cool as a parent and not fall into this like let's start them as three-year-olds in the sports.
Speaker 3:But what has ended up happening because I was trying to be so chill is that my eight-year-old and softball who's really enjoyed it and played basketball and soccer and trying to do all the things, she's sort of fallen behind all of the other kiddos who pushed really hard, and so she's now feeling really discouraged in the league that she's playing in. My son is honestly seeing the exact same thing because we let them, you know, play for fun as opposed to just always learning to play to win, and so I'm curious what your thoughts are on a little bit of this. I don't know. Shift, I think, to super, super competitive at a really young age, and any ideas or thoughts you have on still cultivating their eagerness in sport, because I'm really worried that they're going to be just so discouraged. They don't want to continue, and so, you know, trying to play this fine line of let's practice every day in the backyard so that you can get the skills, but then it's not fun anymore, and so, anyway, we're like in the process of this right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everything in sports is not perfect and I'll be the first to say, both as a mom and seeing the specialization in youth sports, I don't like it. I haven't liked it for a long time and I will tell you, a lot of Division I coaches don't like it either. It's an unfortunate reality. I mean, I was, I mean in my daughter's now 20. I remember when my husband I moved to this area she's a soccer player and basketball player and I was the same I made her play multiple sports because I didn't want her to specialize. And I remember showing up at the soccer tryout when she was six and I saw all these parents with tripods like filming their children and I'm looking at my husband going what the heck and where are we and what is this? And in the end it did hurt her in high school as far as like her not specializing, but it hurt her. I'll put in quotes about not making a team, but I will also tell you what sports teaches you to do is how to lose and how to be resilient. So I also think it's very important for parents to realize, for those that choose to, I think, play that game, that a very small percentage is going on to become a Division I scholarship athlete or any form or level of scholarship in college, and I'm shocked by how much parents now are spending in certain levels of youth sports and I think there's some real challenges there that need to be addressed. And it's also creating a major divide from a socioeconomic perspective of who it is benefited. Let's be fair white suburban girls. It has not benefited more BIPOC girls and other rural communities that don't have that same opportunity.
Speaker 2:So the advice I give to parents is you have to know your kid. I've seen certain parents that have kids that that is just. That is how they are made. That is what they love and they want to focus and they want to play one sport and I let them go on that crazy journey if that's where they want and that's where their passion is. But it's really about it's a kid by kid thing. I don't have the solution how the system currently is a bit broken, but I do think it's really important to know your kid and make a decision that way based on being a parent. But I also try to encourage parents that the reality is please don't think that your child is going to go play at Duke or play at Stanford when they're eight. It's just like don't have that mindset, because that reality is just not a smart reality. So I think it's the keeping up with the Joneses a bit which is problematic.
Speaker 2:At the same time, I think you have kids that are really, really talented, that just have a drive and competitive nature. That it's really good for them. And what I don't want to see and what I have seen like in the middle school dropout phase for girls is is the ability to just to play, and when they think they can't just play, that really hurts them too. And so I've also seen, at least through the journey that my daughter went on athletes that have played at a very high level early on.
Speaker 2:So what happened with my daughter soccer team is she ended up playing with girls that all played that Division one elite soccer, and then they got to beginning of high school and they were like I'm done, I want to play lacrosse, I want to play soccer, I want to do these things, and they all went down a couple levels and they still had a ball and they created a team that was competitive and fun, but they weren't like playing on that whatever platinum gold team, whatever it was called.
Speaker 2:And so I think you just have to know your kid, know that journey. I also think that high school sports are still really important, not just those competitive club sports that seem to be taking over the high school space. I think that high school opportunity sometimes is also a great transition for people and for kids to play that may and you know that may not go continue to play club basketball or club soccer or whatever that is, but it's a challenging one and it's one I wish I had a better answer to, but it's the one that I would say you have to know your kid.
Speaker 1:What advice do you have for young women and girls aspiring to pursue a career in sports, whether it's athletes or in sports management?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm a big proponent of it. Clearly, it's been my whole path. I really try to push women. So there's there's a common pattern that I see with women that want to be in sports. They don't necessarily it's. It's kind of like everything we talk about. They don't check all the boxes on a job descriptions, they don't apply. It's like all the standard kind of things that we know about women and things like that. But there's two areas in sports that are really lacking for female representation. One is the data analytics side and the other is revenue generation.
Speaker 2:And at the end of the day in sports I can tell you in pro sports or in college sports, if you know how to make money, if you know how to sell, you're going to have the most opportunity to grow into those C-suite, higher level positions. I know I would not be. I would not have had the three jobs that I had if I wasn't a revenue generator. And I can tell you the 12 years I spent in the PAC, 12 with my counterparts. So in college athletics they kind of call marketing, sponsorship, branding, they call external relations. It's just a different term in college athletics. So my counterparts were usually like the number twos of an athletics department and for 12 years, they were all men except for one and myself, and that room was the room that all became division one athletics director. So basically, the CEO of an athletics department, right? Same thing occurred in the pro sports base. If you were in certain, nothing against the positions that, if you are and you want to be HR and you want to be communications and different like, there's nothing wrong with them. But I will just tell you that there is a lack of women in the revenue and data side of the house and we need more of them. And that is where, in sports, most of the C-suites come out of. And so you know, we still only have, in college athletics, six division one FBS female athletics directors. So somebody like Jen Cohen, who just went to University of Southern California, somebody like Nina King, who is that Duke like and those are at the highest of massive football programs and everything else like 2023, six women in those roles.
Speaker 2:So it's it is usually all about it's hate to say it, but it's knowing how to sell, it's knowing how to raise money, it's knowing how to have you know, I get told no every hour of the day when I'm trying to fundraise right. You just you have to be resilient in that way. So I try to really push women and there's an easy way, an entry level way to get into that side of sports. But I want more women to see that they can do that, because sometimes it doesn't look like it's that appealing to be told no all the time and to sell something. And I'm not saying you can't get there through other kind of verticals within the business of sport, but it is the place where I think there's the most lack of females. Anybody who ever wants to talk about those to that side of the house. I'm always going to push you towards that side of the house.
Speaker 2:The data side is just really new because there's a performative side of data analytics and sports which is very much on I like to call it on the more operation side of a team. If you're with the Thunder as an example, there's a whole team that is looking at every performative data of those athletes to see how they can perform better, from their shot to their health, to you name it. That's a whole really cool side of sports. There's a business side of data analytics about how you just like you would with a consumer brand, and that's also an area, for some reason, that there's a more lack of females in.
Speaker 2:Those two are interesting for us. But there's lots of ways to get into sports. There's lots of entry points and it doesn't matter what gender you are. It doesn't matter if you're working for a male team or a female team. Everybody always wonders how I made it in my career and I always tell them I said it wasn't because I was the vice president of Sacramento Kings, because I ran a WMBA franchise and it was hard. That's what taught me how to be a CEO.
Speaker 5:My name is Michelle Singer, mr, and my question is I'm a big believer in you. Vote with your dollars and try to align yourself with good partners that do what you're trying to help with the change you want to see in the world. If we want to see, for instance, more sponsorship dollars going to women's sports or women athletes, are there any organizations that I could support as a consumer or look to work with that say hey, you know what, we see the importance of utilizing athletes for sponsorships or presenting our brand to the audiences, but we want to do even payouts. Whether it's female or male, they get paid equally. I mean, is there anybody trying to do that? From the it all starts with, the incentive is like who's paying the money sometimes? Are there any organizations or companies that say we want to pay equally for male and female sports, or is it just? That doesn't make sense because of the audience size?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think as an individual, I would say it's different than how you look at it as a corporation. So I'll give you an example of a brand that has committed to equal media spending for men's and women's sports that's Ally Financial. So Ally Financial is a former soccer player herself. She's fantastic, but one of her biggest challenges, she'll say, is there's not enough opportunities for her to be able to give the equal amount on the women's side to be able to actually spend the money, right.
Speaker 2:So the space has been so fragmented for so long and the distribution of their content has been so fragmented for so long. So if you think about and it's all changing, because everything was based really much on linear television, right, which we all know is like, I mean, there's going to be generations that have completely cut the cord from that, but the model of sports has been very driven by. You have this time of the day that you're watching your game at 7pm or 4pm on ESPN, right. So that's been a part of the mob. That's all shifting. And there's lots more entities that are in the space now, whether it be Apple Prime, you name it. So I think the opportunities will continue to grow and evolve for that distribution platform. But brands like that that continue to do that kind of like put a flag in the ground and say we're going to do that Individually. There's organizations like we're an organization like giving me the pitch for ourselves, right, like what we do is go fight for this in different ways. Now we're from a not-for-profit lens and we do things like fighting for equal pay for US women's national soccer and things like that, but we do it more through an advocacy and research lens, right, which that may not be of interest of where you want to put your dollars. The other place is as simple as I said earlier buy a jersey, like the amount.
Speaker 2:I will tell you, one of the biggest challenges in women's sports is merchandising. It is the biggest game changer for men's sports and how much money and consumers buy merchandise in jerseys and t-shirts and hats for their favorite sports team. You need to do that for women's sports. I don't care if it's a Caitlin Jersey for the University of Iowa or it's a New Bay Area FC NWSL team or the LA Sparks, whoever it is.
Speaker 2:That merchandising side of the house is critical for individuals and it's also buying a ticket and becoming a seasoned ticket holder and investing in that particular sport, because those franchises are judged by how many fans they have, who's watching them, who's amplifying their social, giving them the audience and the reach it's like. It's no different than any consumer product. They're being judged by the recent frequency of their brand and the more individuals prove and they can show the data and show the numbers that they have people and an audience watching them and investing in them. That's how that equal pay will grow and that's how those franchises and organizations will survive. So if it's in the Oklahoma City area, obviously you guys have a strong softball following. You have really powerful university teams. I would encourage all of you to rally around whatever women's sports program that is Again, I don't care if it's high school, all the way to pros Support them.
Speaker 1:To close out, because it's 11 am right now, tell us about the long-term objectives of the foundation and how. What's your call to action for us and anybody listening to the podcast? Well, thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:So I obviously took this role a year and a half ago, knowing that we were about to turn 50. So we turn 50 next year, which is a big milestone for us. Again, I don't know what Billy was doing Like. I don't know if she slept between equal pay and everything she did with us and creating, obviously, the bowel of sexes and all that. So my objective really is to build an organization that can sustain for the next 50 years.
Speaker 2:I am not naive to know that the legacy of Billy is on a lot of our shoulders. Billy did a world. If it wasn't for Billy Jean King, I wouldn't be here and many people in this space wouldn't be here. And it's my personal passion that I took this job and took this role to create something that I can make sure that for the next 50 years, girls and women have access to playing sports, that we protect Title IX, that we recognize that we still have a significant amount of challenges, and what I really hope for is that people know who and what we are, they embrace who and what we are and they either help us by giving funding to us in some form or fashion or just by amplifying what we do on social media.
Speaker 2:Again, it's as simple as recognizing and being educated for the work that we do. And if you're passionate about gender equality and you're passionate about sport, then we could be the not-for-profit for you. But for me, the goal is to have a sustaining organization that will be here for the next 50 years, long after I'm gone, and my objective is to build a large endowment for this organization so that we can really have a research institute, continue to prove the data, continue to do the advocacy on the Hill and much like what's happening in Fortuna and Women's Rights around the country. We can't rest on our laurels because we can't just think this is just going to keep existing. People have to keep fighting for it, and that's what we're going to do.
