Have you ever felt the weight of trauma in the workplace, struggling to find healing and equity? We are joined by the incredible Minda Harts, bestselling and award-winning author of "The Memo", "Right Within", and "You Are More Than Magic", to share her journey of overcoming these hurdles and finding ways to create safe, inclusive and thriving work environments.
In this inspiring conversation, we discuss the importance of courage, advocacy, and healing from workplace trauma. We share personal stories of dealing with toxicity and the lifelong journey of unpacking the baggage it leaves behind. Minda encourages us to find our voice, advocate for ourselves and others, and emphasizes the power of courageous listening, self-advocacy, and creating safe spaces for women, particularly women of color in the workplace.
Finally, we touch on leveraging privilege and building collaborative tables to create a more equitable world. We explore Minda's forthcoming book and the essential role trust plays in any successful work environment. Tune in for an empowering and healing conversation that will inspire you to demand better and create change.
For our guest full bio, LinkedIn Profile and show notes click here
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
Have you ever felt the weight of trauma in the workplace, struggling to find healing and equity? We are joined by the incredible Minda Harts, bestselling and award-winning author of "The Memo", "Right Within", and "You Are More Than Magic", to share her journey of overcoming these hurdles and finding ways to create safe, inclusive and thriving work environments.
In this inspiring conversation, we discuss the importance of courage, advocacy, and healing from workplace trauma. We share personal stories of dealing with toxicity and the lifelong journey of unpacking the baggage it leaves behind. Minda encourages us to find our voice, advocate for ourselves and others, and emphasizes the power of courageous listening, self-advocacy, and creating safe spaces for women, particularly women of color in the workplace.
Finally, we touch on leveraging privilege and building collaborative tables to create a more equitable world. We explore Minda's forthcoming book and the essential role trust plays in any successful work environment. Tune in for an empowering and healing conversation that will inspire you to demand better and create change.
For our guest full bio, LinkedIn Profile and show notes click here
If you enjoyed the episode share it with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. If you are ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women, all eager to help you get there and stay there. Check out our VEST Membership and apply today! www.VESTHer.co
Hey everyone, this is Erica Lucas, your host and founding member of Vest, an organization connecting women across industries, regions and career levels so that together we can expedite the pipeline of more women in positions of power and influence. Welcome to another episode of the Vestor podcast, where we explore the investable barriers holding women back in the workplace and share stories of women building power collectively.
Speaker 2:If you've not read any of my bookshits, i would say start with the memo and then work your way to write within, because it's a different type of read, a deeper dive into, if you really want to heal, because healing can be messy, right, but it's always going to be worth it. And one of the things that I realized after spending 15 years in corporate America is that I had a lot of baggage.
Speaker 2:You know, i didn't realize what the baggage was, but you know people will say bring your authentic selves to work. But if you've been in these environments as the only or one of you, you don't know who your authentic self is anymore. Okay, so you got to figure it out because, like you said, vanessa, they will try you every day. And now you're like who am I? I don't know. I realized that all those years of the micro macro aggressions racism, sexism you insert the ism. That's like any toxic relationship, that's like an abusive relationship and I realized that I was in a cycle of abuse for a very, very long time, but I normalized the treatment.
Speaker 1:In this episode we talked to Minda Hearts, bestselling and award winning author of the memo, what women of color need to know to secure a seat at the table right within, how to heal from racial trauma in the workplace. and you are more than magic. Minda was named by LinkedIn as the number one top voice for equity in the workplace and by business insider as one of the top 100 people transforming businesses. Special thanks to Vest member, founder and CEO of open design collective, vanessa Morrison, for moderating this session. You can access Minda and Vanessa's full bio, linkedin profiles and show notes on our website at wwwvestherco.
Speaker 1:This episode is sponsored by audible, the leading provider of audio books, podcast guided wellness programs, theatrical performances and more. they have over 1000 titles for you to choose from, including our guest books, the memo right within. and you are more than magic. Go to wwwaudible trialcom for slash best her and get a 30 day free trial plus a free credit to use on one of Minda's books. This recording was part of a more intimate coaching session with best members and has been repurposed to accommodate this episode.
Speaker 3:Minda, thank you so much for joining us here today and being in conversation with us. I just wanted to personally give you some flowers before we jump into today's discussion. And you know I originally I might think about reflect back when I originally came across your work. It was in 2020, early 2020, during the height of the pandemic, and it was during a season in my life where I was going through a lot of things with the pandemic.
Speaker 3:But it was a very challenging time for me professionally, in my workplace environment, and some friends and I has started doing some virtual wine nights and we're just kind of collectively coming together to support one another and actually started an impromptu book club of with a memo and we're just sharing these experiences.
Speaker 3:And when I say that book was so affirming and restorative to me, not only to be able to share those experiences with my friends, but to read and understand, okay, i'm not crazy or out of line for me that this is not okay or I'm not alone in experiencing some of these injustices in the workplace.
Speaker 3:It was just so healing for me and it truly was a catalyst and me knowing that, hey, i can demand better, i deserve better and I'm going to expect better and I don't have to stay here, and that has just led me into so many bigger and better spaces in my life. So I just wanted to give you your flowers and just thank you for what you are doing, the content you're creating and not only bringing visibility to black women's experiences in the workplace, but helping other people understand how those experience show up and how we can really create better and more equitable conditions where black women feel safer in their environments. Because every time I talk to people it's like, okay, how do we recruit, how do we retain, how do we get more black women in the workplace environment? but you cannot do that unless you are working actively to create those conditions where black women can feel safe to cure and where they can thrive. So just thank you, thank you so much for your work and being in conversation with us.
Speaker 2:Well, well, thank you so much, vanessa, for those kind words. I you know, when I started this journey, i was writing kind of out of my own therapeutic place, right, and then I realized that I wasn't just writing my story, i was writing many of our stories. So again, thank you for the, for the kind words, and thank you to the best community and Erica for inviting me, honored to be here with you all today. You could be anywhere on the internet and you're here with us, so thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you everyone. It's going to be a great conversation. So, amanda, i wanted to start off by asking you what led you to this work, and I know it probably and I know it did take a lot of courage for you to come out, because you're not just again is speaking about a general community. you're speaking about your own individual experiences that you have lived through and had to navigate throughout your professional trajectory, and so what would you say sort of, was the catalyst for you and led you to creating this type of content and being a thought leader in this space about black women's experiences in the workplace.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that question. I believe our stories are so important And so I love this question because our stories matter, our experiences matter. This will probably be the longest answer that I give, to kind of bring us why we sit here, why I sit here today. But you know, i graduated college first generation, first person, also in my family, to work in a corporate space, and so I did not know what I didn't know. You know, i was under this assumption, like many of us, that if you work hard you get the things right, that we work in a meritocracy, that if you work hard to get your seat at the table you get the advances, you get everything.
Speaker 2:And when I entered into my first corporate role, i was the only woman of color, only black woman, sometimes the only woman in the space and out of hundreds of employees. And I was not prepared for what that meant for me. And my first manager will call him Chad for today, chad. He said saw that I had on burnt orange fingernail polish and he said you people love your bright colors. And he and he joked around for 15 minutes about how black people like bright colors. And this is my manager, right, you know.
Speaker 2:So at that time I didn't feel like I could say anything. I didn't know what to say. And he would go on to say those things several times a day because, as we know, chad never means any harm, right? So when Chad never means any harm, then you end up feeling all of that harm, but you don't even realize, because when I entered into the space, like many of us, we didn't have fancy words like micro and macro aggressions, you just knew that you felt slighted, you felt affected, but you didn't have the language and you didn't feel the safety as Vanessa said to be able to speak on these things. Because you're like well, if everybody else is saying that that's just Chad being Chad, or you're having, you just need tough skin and that must be the case, right? and so you start to believe this, and you start to believe everybody else's narrative over yourself, because you have to affirm you right. And so I spent 10 years in that environment, because I think sometimes as women women of color we get advanced degrees and trying to make everything work right.
Speaker 2:So I'm like I have to work, i have to make this work, and, and so, longer story short, i also, you know, was the person in my family that quote unquote, made it. You know, i'm the oldest of three kids and so I had all these other responsibilities that I felt tied to that. I also could make certain decisions, because I didn't feel that I could write everybody's in, even though it hadn't been said, is counting on me, and you feel that pressure for any of those who might have that that's a whole another book. But I ended up leaving that space and go into another space, vanessa, is that I had taken all of this baggage, all of this trauma, all of these things that I had been enduring for the last decade, but I didn't have words for it. And it did start to impact me, but I didn't realize how it did. And so I got to the next environment And again, i apologize, this will be the longest, i'm sorry, but just to set the table is I go to this next environment and I believe that this may be the space for me. Right, because I realized that, after spending a decade in one career, i could not change the dynamics, i could not change them by myself, and so I said, okay, i saw Black Lives Matter demonstration taking place outside my window before I left that particular company And it was the murder of Trayvon Martin. And it was the first time that I actually felt like this impact on me, even though these murders had been happening for a lot, but it's the first time that I kind of like paid attention in a sense. Right, i'd been working really hard with my head down And then I looked up and I saw Trayvon's face and I saw that of my brothers, i saw it in my cousins and it hit different for me And I started to think about excuse me, what does Black Lives Matter mean inside the workplace, right?
Speaker 2:What does it mean on the About Us pages? What does it mean for advancement? What does it mean for pay equity? And I started to think about those things in a way that I hadn't considered before. But again, at that time I thought I was waiting on somebody else to save me. I was waiting on somebody to say the thing. I was waiting on somebody else to write the book. So I realized that this space was not for me. I'm barely surviving here, making good money, but I'm barely surviving, right. So I move on to this next place And they said all the things that my last place didn't say in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion, belonging. They said all the things I'm like. Well, if they're saying these things, then they must be true, right. And so I go to this new environment and it was everything but that right, and I can enter into the space as the only. And so I already knew what that experience was like. So I thought, okay, i already understand how to navigate those politics in some way, but because they're saying these words of diversity, it must be a different environment. If you read the memo right within, it's a hundred times worse than what I left.
Speaker 2:And over another year of working in that environment, my mental health started to get impacted. I started to get anxiety attacks, i started to get panic attacks, depression. My weight was up and down And I could not figure out what was the problem. Right, i kept thinking that it was me, because no one else is affirming you in these environments. And so it got so paralyzing that in some meetings I could barely say my name. That's how bad it had got. But to the outside, many people probably just didn't understand what it was, because I had one of the most successful years on paper in my career. Even in that battle, i still was top tier, work right.
Speaker 2:And so after a year in that environment, thinking things might change, i decided you know what, minda, you've always had your voice. You just have to decide how to use it. I was waiting on somebody else to say it, i was waiting on some ally to show up, i was waiting on my manager to be a manager and lead, and nobody was helping me in this environment And everybody was watching this unfold with another colleague And I said well, you know, i do have my voice. And so I advocated for myself at the most senior levels to say, hey, can you partner with me to remove this barrier? It's not one that I created.
Speaker 2:It took a word that you mentioned, vanessa courage, the ability to do something that frightened one. I'd spent my whole career not showing up for myself in the ways that I needed because of fear, and I said let me let my curiosity be larger than my fear in this moment. Let me think about myself in a way, even though I was struggling to even show up in myself for myself in that way. Longer story short, i have to take that little bit of courage. Sometimes it's a small sliver And I go and have a conversation with the most senior woman there And I said hey, you know, i uprooted my life from one coast to the other.
Speaker 2:I didn't create these situations that are going on. Can you please remove this barrier for me? Partner with me. She's like we hired you because we thought you had big skin. You're really great, you're having a great year, but the person that's causing these issues for you she's. The clients love her. She's also really great friends with this person, and so she was like I can't, you're going to have to decide if this is the place you want to work. I hope that you can figure it out and move on from this, but there's nothing I can do.
Speaker 4:She knows caution.
Speaker 2:So, longer story short, i leave her office that day And I wanted to cry in that moment because it wasn't what she didn't say, it's what everybody I had worked with never said. It's the things that people never showed up for, and all I wanted was some humanity in that moment. I wanted her to see me And so I left her office that day, grabbed my stuff. I'll never forget Again. Stories are so important. Your story is so important. 2014,. It's a Friday. I'll never forget it. I grab my stuff, go into my car. In the car, i cry If anybody's ever had those just deep, heavy cries Because I cried for me, i cried for anybody else who had experienced these inequities in the workplace.
Speaker 2:I felt like I had done everything. I had changed my name, i wore my hair the straightest, i assimilated, i came in early. Bob liked the red velvet cupcakes. I make the red velvet cupcakes. I'm doing all the things And no one is seeing me And I could not quit.
Speaker 2:I was in a space where I could not quit And I get emotional every time I talk about it, because I know that there's women out there right now who are feeling it. Maybe some of you are here right now And I sat in that car And I just lashes on the ground, make up on the ground And I'm just like god. I've done everything And I can't keep on like this. My mental health is impacted, everything. And I just remembered the word courage, the ability to do something that frightens one, and I thought to myself, all the women who had come before me. I thought about my ancestors, my mother, my great grandmother, my grandmother. All the courage that they mustered up to make it a little bit better for me so that I could be in these spaces right. None of them were able to work in corporate in those ways, due to systems beyond our control, and so I thought about I'm a beneficiary of somebody's courage who's?
Speaker 2:going to benefit the beneficiary of mine? Who's going to benefit from my voice? My voice is tied to somebody else's freedom. What am I going to do about that? I'm sitting in the car having this heavy conversation with myself, right, not really sure what the answers are. I turned on the radio and Whitney Houston's Where Do Broken Hearts Go comes on the radio And at that moment I'm laughing and I'm crying.
Speaker 2:I'm like you're crazy, minda. You know like I'm like God, you have such a funny sense of humor. And I said to myself I thought where did the broken hearts of women of color go when we can't take the workplace anymore? And I didn't have the answer, vanessa. But I said, if it takes my whole career, from this moment forward, i will figure out a way to shine a light on the voices of women of color in the workplace, to give context, to give voice so that we can read and experience content that doesn't make us feel crazy, that reminds us that we're good enough to deserve humanity, dignity, equity and respect in the workplace, and we don't have to play these games with people all day, every day, at the expense of our own well-being. Right, what would it look like to center ourselves? And in 2014, i didn't have all the answers, but I set out to figure out what that looked like and what I could create. And we sit here today, three best-selling books later. Courage has been the guiding force.
Speaker 2:You know, if you would have asked me in 2014, when I felt at my worst, where I could barely, i didn't even recognize myself anymore, from entering corporate in 2003 to leaving in 2019 is when I left corporate America. It was six months before the memo came out and I took a leap and I said this is I want people to benefit, and it was the first book by a major publisher about the experiences of women of color. And so never discount your voice and know that everything that we do is not just for us, but it's for the ecosystem. And once I realized, vanessa, that it wasn't just about me in that car, that it was something bigger. It fueled me, and I didn't even know I'd land here right. I just knew that I could not keep up and I didn't want the next generation to inherit a workplace that I had. I wanted to make the workplace better than I found it, and that's why, that's my why, and it's every day I wake up that's my why. Yeah, beautiful.
Speaker 3:I mean 1000%, yes, 100%. I think about when you mentioned that first generational pressure. That is real, and so you are existing in this space where you're experiencing trauma. You have this pressure as a first generational person to be in this space, to make it for your family. You almost feel guilty or start normalizing the dysfunction and toxicity because you're like you know what I made it here. People worked hard for me to be here. I can't let them down.
Speaker 3:But, to your point, i'm just so grateful for what you're doing because you are shifting culture, You are changing the game in a way where women who are coming up now and after us will not have to go through the same experiences and crisis and trauma that we've had to endure, and I'm just so hopeful for that. I know it's incremental, it will take time, but I'm so hopeful for what you're pushing and building for women across the world. So thank you. All right, so we have a copy of your latest book, you Are More Than Magic, and I'd love to hear from your point of view on why this book is so important and what your readers to really gain from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for that For me. I wrote the memo and I thought, oh, because sometimes we end up in spaces where you're not dreaming big enough, you don't even know what's possible for yourself. I write this book, the memo, and then I write right within And then I thought, wow, we need some of these conversations around what it's like to use our voice, self-advocacy, how to have difficult conversations. We don't need to wait so we get to the workplace to learn how to do these things. I would have gotten young adults in our lives, right, And I thought about the whole concept of black girl magic And, let's be honest, every place that any of us have gotten to our life. It was way more than magic.
Speaker 4:It wasn't locked in script.
Speaker 2:It was determination, it was hard work, right, and I think sometimes society fetishizes what it is that gets us to these places. Right And magic is cute and cool, but that's not what gets us here. And so I wrote this book. You are more than that. You are so much more than that, and I wanted to write a kind of a love letter to young adults about how to use their voice, how to show up for themselves, how to network.
Speaker 2:So I guess you could say it's like the memo, but for young readers and I talk about my experiences as a teenager in early college just to remind them that they have their voices now. They don't have to wait till they're 18, they don't have to wait till they're 21,. How to appreciate your salaries now, even on your certain jobs that you're having. How do you have difficult conversations with people who don't have the same tools that you have right? So I really wanted to talk about those things to empower this next generation, because many of us may work with many of them and I get the pleasure of speaking at a lot of companies and organizations and I'll hear from some of our more veteran employees all those Gen Zs, all those early millennials they don't. What is the word they use? they need to do their time right. They're using their voice. They're asking for the things I say. Wait a second. Don't you wish you would have asked for these things 20 years ago instead of waiting for them Now? they?
Speaker 3:may need to I just wanted to get better.
Speaker 2:They're realizing that they don't have to see in this world for 15 years before they ask for what they want, right? So let's cultivate that voice. Let's not shut it down, let's help them finesse it and work it out. And so I just wanted us again to be partners with them, and so I even wrote the book in a conversational way, like I write my other books and even some reading guides that allow for us to have this dialogue, because the multi-generational dialogue is so important. We all need each other. Our success is not a solo sport, and so I just really wanted to be able to pour into that group and, as well, pour into us. So if you have young adults in your life, it's graduation season, or just you have Or if you are, i also wrote it in a different way too. So if you are a teacher, right, that has students of color, or you're adopting, you know kids of color, that you have certain conversations that you don't steer away from them, right? You know so valuing those. So I'm excited for that book.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. Yes, and like you said, those are skills. Those are not just things that you are just born. knowing how to do that is a skill that is to be learned, and the sooner we can get younger generations and even older generations familiar with how to use those skills, the better You know. When I was reading through your book, i was like man, i could have used this like 10 years ago. I'm gonna save myself so much trouble if I would have just known like these practical, tangible skills.
Speaker 3:And, to your point, yes, knowing how to navigate conversation to people who don't have the same skills as you, cause some people will try to try you. A lot of times they will try to try you, and so how do you keep your vibration high and not get into that space with people as well? So, yes, important skills, and I'm so happy that that book is providing people with those tangible, actionable steps. All right, so also in your book, right within you talk about trauma in the workplace and how to heal and just day to day practices that women can look at and turn towards to help heal themselves and navigate those situations. So can you share more about how trauma might commonly show up in the workplace. I know you shared a lot in your first answer with us, but maybe some other examples of how that shows up so people can have a deeper understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. You know, right within is if you've not read any of my books yet, i would say start with the memo and then work your way to write within, because it's a different type of read, a deeper dive into, if you really wanna heal because healing can be messy, right, but it's always gonna be worth it. And one of the things that I realized after spending 15 years in corporate America is that I had a lot of baggage.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize what the baggage was. But people will say bring your authentic selves to work. But if you've been in these environments as the only or one of you, you don't know who your authentic self is anymore. Okay, so you gotta figure it out because, like you said, vanessa, they will try you every day and now you're like who am I? I don't know. So I realized that all those years of the micro macro aggressions racism, sexism you insert the ism. That's like any toxic relationship, that's like an abusive relationship.
Speaker 2:And I realized that I was in a cycle of abuse for a very, very long time. But I normalized the treatment. I'm like, oh well, at least I'm making this money, at least I can do this and all those sorts of things At least I have, at least. I'm like that's bare bones, right, right, vanity, dignity, equity and respect in the workplace should be table stakes, right? And I thought about all those things that started to impact me. And so, yes, i was never the tropes that many of people call us in the workplace angry, feisty, docile, those sorts of things but perhaps because I'd spent my time in these environments all day long, when I got home, the people that loved me didn't get the best of me, right, they might've gotten an angry or annoyed or whatever the case. And so healing isn't just for us, it's for the people that love us the most. Healing isn't just for us, it's for our future selves, right? Many of you might remember the famous song by Erica Badu, bag Lady. She says one day, all those bags gonna get in your way. So pack light. Those bags of trauma, those bags of injustice, those will eventually get in your way in some way, shape or form. Because you're not able to thrive at work, you're barely surviving. And so, once I realized that the anxiety and the depression that I was experiencing wasn't anything I had done, it was the environments that I had been exposed to. It's the chads, it's the whomevers you insert the person right, and it's this environment. And so I realized that I deserve to be free. Right, we just had Juneteenth, on the 19th, and that's the celebration of freedom for those who were enslaved. And when you think about us, many of us are enslaved in the workplace and oppressed in many ways. So what does freedom look like? And so healing is tied to freedom, no longer feeling confined. And so I realized that I deserved freedom In 1970s.
Speaker 2:There's an author, her name is Toni Kade Bambara. She wrote this book called Salt Eaters. It's a nonfiction book, but there's these two characters that are having a conversation, and one character says to another "'Sweetie, don't you wanna be well'. And it really hits in a different way, because when I think about healing, don't we wanna be well? It's not enough to be our authentic self in the workplace, but what about our healthiest self? Because if you're healthy, right, if you're acknowledging things, i spent so much time in the workplace and I never wanted to call it racism, even when I knew it was right.
Speaker 2:We will even lie to ourselves homophobia, ageism, whatever it is. We don't wanna say it out loud And I'm like. The last person I wanna lie to is myself. So I have to talk about these things. I have to say it, even if I don't acknowledge it to my manager, i don't acknowledge it to HR. I can't conquer what I'm not willing to confront, and so, right within, is how do you win if you ain't right within? I can't control who goes to the unconscious bystraining. I can't control who reads the books and listens to the podcast, but I can control my healing, i can control my health, and so I just wanted to center what, releasing some of those chads in our lives and the cuts that we might have normalized and swept under the rug and saying, sweetie, don't we wanna be well.
Speaker 3:Right, Mm-hmm, beautiful, beautiful, Yes. and speaking of being well you speak about in your books, you talk a lot about healing and how it's not just a one-time event or a one-time incident, but it really is a lifelong journey. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that and how people can just even approach it when it's an ongoing journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, right now we have these buzzwords and you're probably seeing healing, healing. We all have to heal, but healing takes work. If healing was easy, we all be healed right. And I realized after being in an environment for such a long time, i wasn't going to heal overnight, right, it took some work. I had to first acknowledge some things had happened to me. I had to acknowledge these things to myself.
Speaker 2:I ended up going to therapy a lot of different things because I realized that none of this is normal right. Even though we have normalized it for our safety right, we've decided we're going to sweep it under the rug for safety reasons, but that doesn't help us any. And so I say that healing is not a one-time event, it's a lifestyle. You can go to a retreat and go to, you can do yoga, you can get a massage, but it can be a lifelong journey to healing right. But the one thing that I will encourage is that, for me, even I'm still healing, but I'm so much better of a version of my best self, the self today. By doing that work right, the people that love me, the decisions that I make, i can make them from a state of centered, not trauma, right, i can make it through abundance and not scarcity. And then also the people around me. I'm passing on tools to them, right? Not just tools of survival, but tools of thriving. Again, when I talk about healing, it's not just for us, it's for the ecosystem, right?
Speaker 2:If you think about each and every one of us, if we have healing in our toolkit, if we have self-advocacy in our toolkit, then we are passing that on and we are now flipping the narrative to those that we work with to say, you know what healing is really boundary setting, because when I look back over my career, it was the lack of boundaries that I never set. That has been some of this right. It's caused it, and in some cases I was participating in my own oppression And when you hear it from that you're like, ooh, that's hard to hear. That It's kind of jarring, right.
Speaker 2:So, realizing that I do have choices, i do have choices, and choices doesn't mean that you leave an environment. It means you know what I might say, need to have a conversation with somebody, because how can they know that this is causing me issues if I'm not basing the conversation in fact right, if I'm not showing up for myself? And so, again, we are good enough. If somebody in our office can raise hell about the creamer being out or the coffee filters not being in, why can't I actually have a conversation about some real stuff that matters to me, right?
Speaker 3:about my humanity.
Speaker 2:yeah, You know. So all of that to say is give yourself permission to have the conversations, because we call them courageous conversations, difficult conversations, but the more we have them, they become conversations, they become normalized, right. And so I've learned to say what I mean without saying it mean, right. And also, lastly, part of healing is no longer centering those people who are causing harm. Two things can be true at the same time Someone may not, may be well-intentioned, and it's still causing harm, right. But oftentimes we center the person, the Chad. I'm using Chad. Oh, he didn't mean any harm, oh, that's just Chad being Chad, but yet we have no humanity or empathy for the person that's always on the receiving end of that, and so we need to talk that equation. That is not helpful, right 100%.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yeah, and I know in my healing journey personally it can get frustrating And I remember when I was early on in it, around that time when I made that shift professionally, i was saying, man, i did the meditation, i did the yoga. Why do I feel like I'm going back and forth, back and forth? But yes, to your point, it's a non-linear process, it's a journey and it might take a lifetime. But you can be better versions of yourself and evolve through that journey and not have to go through some of the same challenges as when you first started. And I also am, too, still healing from those experiences. But yes, i'm not.
Speaker 3:You said that you weren't the tropes. I was definitely some of those tropes. I was feisty, sassy, especially towards the end. They weren't hearing a lot from me, but I can just even see in my growth how I'm able to shift and react to situations better because I've been doing that internal work and I know how I have some time to go and a journey to go. But yes, we can continue to evolve in that journey over time. So, thank you. So we know that with healing it's so important to have a community of support and peers in that effort in that space. And so with women, black women specifically who are already isolated in the workplace but we don't have those skills and know how to build those relationships, or maybe don't have people that they can relate to, who are going, who understand what they're going through, how can they work or approach building that support system for themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wonderful question. I mentioned that success is not a solo sport, and I think sometimes, as women, we feel like we have to be strong for everybody but ourselves. so we can't say the things that bother us, we can't articulate those things in a way, because we have been kind of coined as this person that has it all together and never let them see you sweat. but there's power and vulnerability. That's why I do love the work of Brunet Brown, for that very fact is that she gave us permission to be vulnerable And unfortunately, in the system that we navigate is, some women can be vulnerable where others can't, and so we have to dismantle that notion that only vulnerability is reserved for certain people. And so I think that part of the healing is so important for black women in particular, because we have been on the margins for so long that we have been told just be grateful to be here, right, and when our other, you know, i think she's been told that too And so when you're constantly hearing that narrative and conditioning, you feel like you should be grateful to be here and that you don't wanna rock the boat and all the other things, right. And why is showing up for yourself? Why is self-advocacy rocking the boat, right, you know. and so, again, we have to change the narrative on that. And so I do believe that when we create those boundaries again, when we say what we mean without saying it, mean that it benefits us and benefits our career, but I think for so long, i mean even just history, and that's why history is so important. So it really annoys me in many states that are trying to rewrite history today, because it's only been less than 60 years that even black and brown women were able to do the work that we're able to do today, right, you know. so it takes courage, it takes the healing, it takes the self-advocacy for us to push forward. think of what we've been able to do in the last, even three years, since the unfortunate murder of George Floyd. how many of us have gave ourself permission to say the thing, to ask for what we want, right? And so we cannot go backwards, right, we have to continue to move forward.
Speaker 2:And again, the reason why I say it's so important for us is because, again, our voices are tied to someone else's freedom, right? And when you think about it in a larger context, again you're realizing that we really are in this together, we are connected, and so I often say think about the consequence if we don't speak up, the consequence if we don't show up for each other, think about the consequence if we don't leave that job. right, you know, again, the stories that we tell ourself about ourself is so important because once you understand that you are good enough to deserve it, you'll say you know what? I'm no longer gonna. I'm gonna see what it looks like to work somewhere else. right, i'm gonna jump on my own, that we have options Again, i think sometimes women of color, we don't feel like we have any options, or we'll say those things like oh well, it's the devil that I know, but why would you even wanna play with the devil, right?
Speaker 4:Right at all, At all At all. You can never get what you want.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, 100%, yeah, you know I'll never forget. A mentor of mine who's not a black woman told me once that you know you settling is making it harder for the next woman because if you are top of your career, top of your industry, you're educated, you have all the accolades and they think they can treat you and play with you like this They're. I think they can treat the next woman like that and anybody else that comes after you. So you have an obligation to be participatory in this effort of liberating black women and demanding better and not just resonated with me so deeply Like yes, we are connected. This is an ecosystem and what we do tells and teaches people how they can treat all of us, even though we are not a monolith, we are not all just one individual experience. That's a lot of times how people approach our community And so when we settle, we're setting a precedent for them to play with other people's lives and we can't keep doing that. Like you said, we cannot go back. So thank you for that.
Speaker 3:All right, so we, you know thinking and reflecting on women and how women can have different experiences at work, and of course, we know that's directly tied to race, ethnicity, sexuality, background, economic status and more. There's still a lot of people that don't recognize those differences amongst those identities and how those experiences show up in the workplace. And so here at Vest we work really intentionally to create safe places for all women so we can build more equitable workplaces and build spaces where women can be their authentic selves and show up fully And so working, you know, building this diverse collective that we have built here. How can we help, or what would be some advice that you would give, to help us share those truths, validate each other And I will say personally I feel very validated and supported in this group, but just to kind of keep that at the forefront as a priority and keep challenging ourselves to work and advance that effort, how can diverse groups really help each other truth share, validate one another, when we all are kind of coming from different communities and different identities?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i love this question so much Because there is proximity to power. There's proximity to privilege, right? Some of us are closer to proximity of power and privilege than others, right, even though we all might identify in a similar group. Some of us have more access to privilege than others, and I think it's very important to not shy away from that and that we leverage it right. We leverage it for each other. I think sometimes the word privilege has been made to be a bad word, but it's actually bad when you're not using it right. So how can we make someone else's seat safer? You can't make someone else's seat safer if you don't understand what's causing the seat to be uncomfortable in the first place, right, and so I understand that each of us has an opportunity to be able to make someone else's seat safer when we listen, right?
Speaker 2:A lot of what we've been talking about today, vanessa, is about courage, the ability to do something that frightens when using our voice, knowing that we have one. We just have to decide how we want to use it. But the other part of courage is also being a courageous listener saying, wow. That experience is maybe different than mine, even though I understand some of this. You know it's nuanced, but how can I be a courageous listener, even if maybe I've said a thing that might have offended somebody in the in the groove, right Understanding that it's courageous? Somebody's not telling me this thing to make me feel bad, but they're telling that I have to my toolkit so that I'm not also oppressing other people. Because, let's be honest, even in women of color groups and women community, women are harming other women intentionally, unintentionally, right, and so we have to hear each other's stories, we have to be willing to be good listeners and then say, okay, how can I remove this barrier for somebody else, now that I know that it's there, right? And so I think very important that we have groups like this and that we have, you know, intergenerational conversation, intersectional conversations, because that just equips each and every one of us, when we are in the rooms that we're not in, to be able to speak each other's names, to be able to when no one has that issue on the table. We now are aware of it, you know.
Speaker 2:So we, for me, in particular, when I'm advocating for women, i'm not just advocating for myself, i'm not just advocating for black and brown women, but I'm like, okay, what about the women who are not included, right, trans women or, you know, however, people might identify non-binary individuals I need to be able to also educate myself so that I can show up in the ways that I need to for those communities as well, and so when I think about allyship, when I think about support systems, i also think it's not reserved just for, you know, certain groups. We all can be that for each other, and so I think it is important that we read each other's books, that we listen to each other's podcasts, that we show up at the ERGs for even people that we may not identify as, because we become better humans, better managers, better leaders, when we understand the experiences of how we can make everybody experience the workplace in a better way. And so I do believe that communities like this are very important, but let's also not get to the space where we know everything. You know, like even LinkedIn, like named me top listen. I'm still learning, i'm still growing, i still make mistakes, right, but I'm also willing to admit when I'm wrong and I'm willing to dust myself off and try again and continue to read and continue to educate. So I think that we just become better for each other, and I think, once we see ourselves in that way, that this is, we can be. Let's, i give everybody homework. I am a professor, so I can't help but do this.
Speaker 2:What would it look like if we change what the definition of success looks like?
Speaker 2:We know that the original table was created for nobody here. It was created for no one here, right? So why are we scrounging and pushing and being you know vicious for a seat that no one was never even created for any of us? So what does it look like that we redefine success, we re, we disassemble the table, rebuild one that creates more seats, right? And that when we see each other, is not just like scarcity situation, but it's not musical chairs, that we get to create a table in which we can pull up more seats for each other. And once we see each other as true collaborators, then I think that we will also change the way that those on the outside look at how women interact with each other as well. And so I think we do also have to do some healing and community together so that we can trust each other again, because that is the core, i think, of what all of this work really leads to a lot of trust has been gone out the window, and so how do we restore that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, 100% Yes, being a courageous voice but also a courageous listener. Just so many gyms in your response right there. And yes, we, we all have proximity to power to some degree. You know some of us more marginalized than others, but you know even me, as a black woman working at the University of Oklahoma, i'm always thinking, okay, i work for a whole institution that has tons of resources. How can I leverage that, how can I support, how can I share? And so, listening to one another, understanding those barriers and being strategic about how we all can flourish and thrive, i think you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 3:And, yes, it starts with the foundation of trust, which I love how best gathers us and convenes us so we can build these really meaningful relationships and connections with one another. So really grateful for that. So kind of want to get into your book that's still in the lab. I know it's still under construction and you're still working on it, but if you could just give maybe like a snapshot of what people can expect with your new body of work, we love to hear maybe the Cliff Note version of that.
Speaker 2:Yes, again, thank you for having me. It's just been such an honor and a privilege to be in conversation with you, vanessa, and with everyone here, so I use the word that I just dropped strategically, it just landed really well. but trust is the next book that I'm writing about, and because I don't think we can get to a more equitable workplace without trust. every person, whether you're a white male, a Latin woman, a trans Asian male or whoever you might identify, 75 years old, you're still in the workplace.
Speaker 2:trust has been an issue for all of us. We've been made promises that never seem to come to fruition all these different things, and so I'm working on under construction as my next book and it's about how we restore trust in a broken workplace, and so in this book is exciting for me because I had mentioned before we went live that this is my crossover album. I plan to write a broader book because I feel like this issue is an issue that everyone is experiencing right now, and if I can lend my voice to a conversation that's broader, then I feel like it brings us back to the memo. it brings us back to right within. it brings us back to healing and creating a workplace that works for everybody, with some trust at the center.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. We really are grateful for you, and I definitely want to open it up for questions.
Speaker 4:Yes, Yes, first off, minda, thank you so much for speaking with us today. I'm incredibly appreciative that you've shared your time with us and, speaking of someone who has been in the corporate world and I understand my ableism, my privilege My question for you is what are your thoughts on shifting into that one person all time, all time bunch of entrepreneurship life from that toxic corporate culture, while also giving back and amplifying multi-marginalized spaces? So like, how do you divide your priorities to be personally successful but also to share that success with younger generations in the area of enterprise? Because the more that I talk to younger people, the more that I realize like there's not a lot of you know stuff happening within colleges to prepare people for real life, so to speak, and what are your thoughts about this shift? just, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you for that question. So the question went in and out a little bit, so if I don't, if I don't answer correctly, make sure that we fill in the blanks from it. But I think that, so the reason why I even really started doing the work that I started to do wasn't because I had hoped that we'd all make a mass Exodus out of corporate or nonprofit work. Right, i feel like we need everybody where they need to be. Right, we all have a position to play on the team and we need people inside and we need people on the outside entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, all of the things and so my thing was this I want us to get to a space where we are forced to leave, that the environment is so toxic that we have no choice but to leave, that we have no choice but to be entrepreneurs.
Speaker 2:There's this stat that says at least that you know, right now, women are the most, like you know, top entrepreneurs. Black women are at the top of the list, or something like that, and that actually annoys me, because most of those women, including myself, did not start companies because we always wanted to be the boss, and I started it because we were in situations where we had to get out but still make a living Right. And so I want us to be able to get into spaces where we have a choice right, that it's not a forced entrepreneurship. And so, realizing that if we do give our self permission to have certain conversations, or we do build a network, that we don't have to stay in the department which had anymore or whoever that we can, you know, go where we need to go, or we find a new table, and if you want to build your own, that's great. But I think we have to also be willing to have that hard conversation out loud. That it's not. It's another type of hard right. It's another type of thing to build your own.
Speaker 2:And so, even as an entrepreneur, since I was 19, i mean, i've been an entrepreneur since 2015, but I didn't fully become one until 2019. I still deal with racism, i still deal with sexism. Those are still things that have not gone away, but I understand now how to navigate those in a way and use my voice that I, you know, have to have a lot of things that I need to do, and so I would say to you is to say what does it? what do I really? what does success mean to? for me? right, and even while I was in corporate America, for when I cried in the car, that was 2014,. I was not able to leave till I was in the car. Okay, to give you a context of that. So when people see kind of the trajectory, it took a long time to get to this space, but in that time I was still building, i was still writing my blog, i was still working on content, i was still advocating for women of color in the workplace, and so two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 2:We don't have to completely leave to still do the good work, right? or what would it look like to take on a role where we can do even more of the work that we want to do? And so I think that, again, success we can redefine it by any way that we want. Some people ask me, linda, do you ever think you'd go back to corporate America? I'll never say never, because you never know what opportunity I might be able to take that would exponentially even make more of an impact than I already have.
Speaker 2:But I want to empower each of us because on those times when I didn't think I was doing anything, when I wasn't making an impact, just even talking about it, even showing up, even if you, you know, do a career day, you, those things work in our favor, right, being a part of this group. And so I think we're kind of changing the narrative, and so I think sometimes we think we have to, like, jump on, climb on top of the Empire State Building to make the impact. But it's the small acts of courage each and every day, it's the, the micro interactions, and so, again, just to remind ourselves that it is a marathon, right, this is a marathon and we need everybody, healthy and hold to be able to do the work because it's it's hard, you know it's not easy, but I hope that kind of lens to the to the question.
Speaker 3:So if you keep yourself disciplined in in your work and in your practice and and really kind of holds yourself, you know strong in this effort of making sure that you feel confident, that you're grounded, that you deserve these things like what is? do you have like a routine that you do a meditation like what does that look like for you?
Speaker 2:Thank you. You know, i joined communities like these two because when I was in my former life I didn't have an employee research group, i didn't have a business resource group. So I think that some of the hard times that I might have had, had I had a community to talk to me, to be a firm, then might have helped me stick around a little bit longer, because then I would have been able to talk hard topics, not just internalizing them in my own head. So community is very important. That helps me. I've founded people in my squad, if you will. So on those days where I'm winning, on those days where I'm not sure, we affirm each other and both those ways we have a, we're doing a. I do a lot of voice memos back and forth with people and my squad on those on those days.
Speaker 2:But what I will say, vanessa, is it's a constant reminder each and every day to myself that I belong in every room that I enter, but not every room deserves to have me. And I enter into that mindset and it doesn't matter who sees me and who doesn't, because I understand my worth is not tied to somebody else. But that took a long time to get to and so, again, going back to healing is not a one time event, is a lifestyle. I'm affirming myself sometimes 20 times a day, every time going up for myself, because the last thing I want to do again is participate in negative self. Talk to me, right, if what's not going to miss me, right? All I'm reminding myself with that, because I have the receipts.
Speaker 2:I know that, yes, these things take time, but I'm always going to get to where I need to be and I would encourage everybody. But the one thing that you can control is yourself advocacy. Everybody's going to tap you on the shoulder. You you also have to. Grandma said close mouths don't get fed. So you also have to let people know are your value and quantify your words, so that people do know how to show up for you as well. And I think that that's part of the affirming of ourself as well.
Speaker 3:Beautiful, beautiful. He said that.
Speaker 2:Quote one more time I belong in every room, but not every room deserves to have me. We're always trying to fit in, right, we're always trying things and right, you know some rooms. just, they're never going to get you and that has nothing to do with you that those are for if they don't get the genius and the brilliance they got to continue to do their feeling right, but that has nothing with me.
Speaker 3:Right, not a reflection of us at all, i just put down a sticking out. This is going right on my little screen To remind myself, because that is a whole word. Thank you for that, so powerful.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this episode, share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of professional women all eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to wwwvestherco and apply today.